Affordable commercial vacuum formed ceramic fiber riser

[briank]

Hi folks,
I know a lot of people on various forums are looking for a source of affordable ceramic risers here in the US. I sent queries to a dozen US manufacturers here in the eastern half of the country over the past month and finally found a factory in Pittsburgh that is willing to produce these in small quantities at very affordable prices.

I am am not in the stove industry and don't desire to make a business out of this. Other forums, however, often put together a forum "group buy" to get a good quantity price and meet the minimum purchase quantity on a desired item. 

I sent the manufacturer specs for its application and current European and American photos of what is currently in use in rocket mass heaters. I want this to be completely open/honest so that no one thinks any profits are being made, so I'll simply post the information I received by email this morning (that way it's open source, anyone can do likewise):


Brian,

Per your request, here is your price for a Vacuum Formed Riser Sleeve.

2600 F Vacuum Formed Fiber Sleeve 6” ID x 8” OD x 24” Long
$ 36.00 each

FOB – Pittsburgh, PA
Lead time = 3-4 weeks ARO

Miminum order of $ 200.00

If you have any questions please let us know.

Thank you,
Product Sales Manager
Temtek Solutions www.temteksolutions.com
2 John Street | Mckees Rocks, PA 15136
Tel: [phone] | Local: 412-771-5533
Cell: 412-334-0618


Please see their website for background on the local manufacturer. Pittsburgh has a lot of heavy industry and this company seems to be well established there. 

My question is whether anyone here would be interested in a "group buy" on these risers?

I would be willing to arrange the group buy, by picking them up from Pittsburgh, packaging them and shipping them individually. Total cost will depend on the cost of the individual riser, packaging costs and actual shipping costs. I'm estimating around $85 total per unit, but I've never done this before, so I may be over or underestimating the cost to package them securely and ship them via the best shipping option. 

My only "motive" in doing this is to pick up one or two for myself (I'm on an extremely tight budget) and friends to experiment with and make them available to others in the same situation. I'm good at researching but my experimenting days with casting etc are just about over due to health trouble and lack of space for tinkering. 

Please let me know your thoughts and please give me a heads up if I'm going about this incorrectly here at Donkey32 or missed something important in the tech involved. 

[ericvw]

I think this is a great idea briank !
I am certainly interested.... If it were to together by May 27th, perhaps I could pick up one or two in PA at a certain GTG......
Daryl could maybe spring for one too!
Great opportunity here, especially for us US folks!

[briank]

Thanks Eric. That should work out but I have to make sure we can hit the minimum number of units to order, and then it's a 3-4 week lead time for manufacture.

I think a lot of folks might be reluctant to investigate this further because I'm not known here on Donkey32. But I'm in the medical field in western PA and I'm more than willing to share my identity privately for folks who want to make sure they're not dealing with some random internet robot.

[pianomark]

Brian,

Great idea, thanks for doing this! I'm definitely interested in one or two units.

I'm not familiar with this material, do you (or anyone else here) know about it's strength, rigidity and compressibility? Can two of these units be stacked (for a taller riser) and be self-supporting? Or would it need structural support? Maybe put them inside a steel tube?

It sounds like you only need to order 6 of these to make the $200 minimum, hard to believe there won't be a lot more interest than that. And the shipping might be less than you think, these things are light weight, right?

Good luck, hope it works out.

Mark

[briank]

Thanks Mark.

I had a long exchange with the sales rep and brought him up to speed on what is currently being used and the atmosphere and temps at which it's being used. They do heat risers for other industrial applications and seemed to know exactly what I was talking about. 

I'm in no expert (I'm actually a foot doctor by trade). This will be my first build and I have not held one in my hands or experimented with it. But I did a lot of research, including hours exchanging emails with Chinese manufacturers, before settling on this one.

I'm under the impression that because of its light weight and very high insulating properties it should work at 24" without any extra insulation on a 6" j or batch box. They should simply stack on the batch box without the need for external support or extra insulation. If they are going to be stacked one on top of another I think they would need outside support. However they can be manufactured with male and female ends which should make them sturdier but adds a small amount to cost. I don't know if that is advisable.

I'm certainly willing to be corrected on ANY of these points. 
I'm new to all of this and I really would like the experts here to weigh in and warn us if my research or statements here are incorrect. 

I'm building on a very limited budget due to recent health care expenses so I'm trying to find the best option at the cheapest price. 

I know there are some awesome products already available and known to many posters here and I want folks to check them out too. 


 

[peterberg]

That $36 is quite a good price. Specifications look good, those things can be stacked without additional support. But you need to make sure it stays in place so male/female ends would be a good thing as long as the internal diameter stays the same. It could be put inside an 8" steel tube or chimney pipe to keep those lined up. I am using similar sleeves for my heat riser and to date there aren't any signs of problems.

[briank]

Jan 29, 2016 2:23:17 GMT -8 peterberg said:

That $36 is quite a good price. Specifications look good, those things can be stacked without additional support. But you need to make sure it stays in place so male/female ends would be a good thing as long as the internal diameter stays the same. It could be put inside an 8" steel tube or chimney pipe to keep those lined up. I am using similar sleeves for my heat riser and to date there aren't any signs of problems.

Thank you Peter.

Would there be any advantage to increasing the outside diameter to make the male to female ends sturdier and increase insulation, or is this outside diameter of 8" adequate?

Also, they could manufacture a 2 piece batch box in the same fashion but the sales rep didn't think it would hold up as a stand alone casting.

However I thought maybe we could make it larger internally to accommodate lining it with firebrick on the bottoms, rear and sides. Do you think it could hold up that way? Would it need to be surrounded by a metal frame or something casted around it to keep everything in place?

[peterberg]

I would regard the 8" outside diameter adequate. Lining a ceramic fibre firebox would be necessary, yes. Maybe split firebrick inside and a simple steel frame at the outside to hold it together. This composition would be a novelty, not done before as far as I know.

[pinhead]

I'd say 8" OD would be adequate for a 6-inch system. After all, if someone wanted more insulation it'd be easy enough wrap the ceramic-fiber with cheaper insulation.

[briank]

Jan 29, 2016 8:19:10 GMT -8 peterberg said:

I would regard the 8" outside diameter adequate.

I'd say 8" OD would be adequate for a 6-inch system. After all, if someone wanted more insulation it'd be easy enough wrap the ceramic-fiber with cheaper insulation.

Great, thank you both. Based on the feedback here, I went ahead and put in an order for the first 6 units. They will be manufactured with the male and female ends so unit price will be a little bit higher. 

If anyone lives close enough to Johnstown PA to pick one up in person, the cost will simply be the unit cost. 

If anyone else wants to join in on this group buy, please let me know ASAP in case we need to order more. PM me for personal contact info. 

[briank]

Jan 29, 2016 8:19:10 GMT -8 peterberg said:

Lining a ceramic fibre firebox would be necessary, yes. Maybe split firebrick inside and a simple steel frame at the outside to hold it together. This composition would be a novelty, not done before as far as I know.

It's not going to be cheap to try initially but I think conceptually it has merit. 

Do you think it's worth a try, or would the vacuum formed ceramic fiber unit compress too much under the weight of the firebricks and firewood load and abuse?

[peterberg]

Hard to tell, this would be a whole new development project.

[briank]

Jan 29, 2016 12:49:40 GMT -8 peterberg said:

Hard to tell, this would be a whole new development project.

Ok thanks. I suspected as much. The sales rep got back to me this afternoon regarding the same question, here's his response:

"Brian,

I am in process of getting the new price of the shape with the additional of the male / female ends. I should have it to you early next week.

I definitely feel more comfortable with the addition of the firebrick to the unit. The vacuum board is a dense product but it will compress. I have attached the data sheet for you to review."

[ericvw]

Wow, moving right along. Great job and efforts, briank !
Thanks to peterberg for sharing a respected and sought after opinion/ advice.
I'm interested to see the cost of the vacuum board "casing" if you will, and questions- will it be a simple box shape, halves, would you need to cut a port?
I had thought about a simple sheet meta box within which castings or firebrick could be placed, than back filled with loose perlite... I'd say the vac board would be much easier to work up if adjustments where necessary.

[Daryl]

Is this fireboard that is made into cylinders? ok, that isn't what it's called but I haven't used it in about 2 years (or more maybe?). The refractory/insulation boards used in kilns?  I've used them for the burn box on an L and they don't hold up well.  But then I am a roughhouser.  Ha!  Someone else may have better luck lining a burn box with them.