JJ
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Post by JJ on Oct 5, 2014 8:56:51 GMT -8
The clay in the ground here is "blue clay." It's so hard that you need an excavator to get it up out of the ground. I have resorted to using fire clay enriched with other ingredients, masons high heat mortar and 9x2x4 fire bricks rated for 3000 degrees from Industrial Fire Brick in Wyoming, Michigan. Andy is a pleasure to work with.
Next summer when I am digging more underground green houses, I will be able to use the clay dug up from the excavator work...but for now - I have to use what I can get my hands on. This makes "cob" making very difficult. I could use suggestions on building the thermal battery since I can't get that blue clay up out of the ground. What other materials do you think would be good (open question for anyone). I want as much heat retention in the battery as possible since this house is pretty large. It's about 3500 square feet which is why I took out half of the upstairs floor so that heat could travel upstairs as well. I'm using low profile ceiling fans on extenders to help keep some heat downstairs.
The problem I see is that I'm not trying to "heat my house," I'm trying to heat the bodies "inside" my house. Until I can get the straw bale construction done next summer (this is a balloon framed house and poorly insulated) and the cob put on the walls...I'm gonna have a very hard time keeping heat in the house...so I really have to focus on "roundness" inside of the house and heating bodies - not the house.
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JJ
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Post by JJ on Oct 5, 2014 8:41:02 GMT -8
I've been out of the innovative rocket mass tech for a few years - been concentrating on permaculture and hydro/aqua ponics. But now I'm coming back to see new tech - "bell" tech...bell rocket mass? Russian Bell? I am interested in what this "bell" is.
Can anyone give me a quick over view of what it is? I'm looking over the net and there doesn't seem to be anywhere that has a consistent description or "technical how it works" summary.
Anyone?
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JJ
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Post by JJ on Oct 5, 2014 8:36:29 GMT -8
Nice one, Tim. We're in the process of building one right now. Constraints of the building have forced us to put the tank on top of the riser. Heat will leave the riser and strike the bottom of the tank directly before going above into a "bell chamber". This should provide the violent mixing you are talking about.. I didn't think about all of this before, just constrained by the space to do it in this way. The drawback is that it's going to be taller than I wanted and will make checking water levels and fiddling with the bits a little more difficult. I'll post images of the build in a few days. Looking forward to seeing those pics K. I never thought about putting the tank on top of the riser. I had just thought about wrapping copper tubing around the heat riser and then connecting it to cpvc or something along those lines. Haven't experimented with it yet. I'll be very interested to see how it turns out for you. I have to admit - I've just been building typical rocket mass heaters for two years now or so...but I think it's time for me to delve into the depths of stuff like this too. I'll be having several underground greenhouses up and functioning in the spring that will be year round (so I've incorporated rocket mass tech into them for the Michigan winters). It will be interesting for sure...
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JJ
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Posts: 56
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Post by JJ on Oct 5, 2014 6:46:38 GMT -8
Welcome back to Michigan! 3 rockets? You sure have some energy! Will they all share a common chimney? I would seriously consider making your bench into a shallow bell. That's what I did to mine, and a lot more heat goes into it! Now see - I've been seeing a lot of titles here about bells but I haven't looked into them much. I'll have to do a bit of reading to see what it is and how to do it. It would be nice if I could share a chimney and run the thermal battery all the way across the house, but I'm not sure I'd be able to get enough suction to heat them all to max capacity. It's definitely worth doing the math over though...I think?
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JJ
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Post by JJ on Oct 4, 2014 22:07:02 GMT -8
Oh ya - also, your heat riser should be at least twice the length/height of your burn chamber. So from the bottom of your burn chamber to the top of the riser, it should be at least 64 inches tall. You really need that "rocket" suction and the riser is the most crucial part of that function. The higher your riser, the more suction you will get.
Also - right out of your combustion chamber, have you used a manifold before running your line to the thermal battery? On my first rocket mass heater, our suction wasn't as good and Kirk gave me some advice on getting a manifold on it and it worked out beautifully after that.
Do you have a pic you can link here?
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JJ
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Posts: 56
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Post by JJ on Oct 4, 2014 22:03:15 GMT -8
At the end of your burn chamber, do you have a sharp 90 degree turn between it and the heat riser? If it's curved, back draft can occur. Also, at the end of your flue outside, have you tried a curved elbow joint that points downward?
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JJ
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Post by JJ on Oct 4, 2014 21:58:57 GMT -8
Welp, it's been a few years since I posted here, but I've done a lot in those few years. Unfortunately, we couldn't rewire the old house in South Dakota fast enough because it burnt down last year. Faulty electrical wiring in that old house we were living in...and unfortunately...our rocket stove, although it made it - wasn't able to be moved due to the debris. We moved back to Michigan after losing everything in the fire. But...we are now living in a historical house made in 1871 and are renovating it. In the corner where there is age old fire brick with re-mortar and a newer (I say this with caution...the chimney was built in the 70's) chimney on the South wall - I have built the combustion chamber for the mass heater I will build. The cool thing about this is that the original house was a queen anne style and where the original door was, there is now (what was the small foyer) 4 tall windows. I am going to build part of the thermal mass in that inlet where the windows are and down the wall about 3 feet past that to make a nice window bench with 8" stove pipe in the battery. This winter is supposed to be a wicked cold one...so I am really seeking out that battery retention and will really appreciate that radiant heat...I hope. lol All in all, I will be building 3 rocket mass heaters in this giant house. One in the basement, the one I'm building in the open living area (I took out the floor above the area that the rocket stove will be in so more heat can get upstairs and have created a balcony to the upper echelons of the house) and one in the kitchen that I will cook with - but that one will be more of a masonry stove than anything. The one in the basement will be for hot water throughout the house and have even though about trying to run some type of radiator system off of it next summer to see how it handles it. But...here's what I got so far. Kirk - my apologies if you're still on dial up Monday I will go for more fire brick. My Kia sportage just can't hold enough bricks! lol
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JJ
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Posts: 56
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Post by JJ on Jan 26, 2013 10:23:48 GMT -8
buenijo, important stuff, it deserves it's own thread; I'd encourage you to discuss the concept of water purification more if you are willing andor He has a breadth of knowledge...and I deeply respect him for sharing it. He discussed more in depth biomass gassification processes on Green Leaks (see my signature) - and I cannot wait till he posts more. These are things I only dreamed about before I met him. I didn't realize that it could actually be put forth into manifestation. I consider myself one lucky person to know you both...so thank you very much...for that.
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JJ
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Posts: 56
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Post by JJ on Jan 25, 2013 15:24:16 GMT -8
Hi Jamie Please take a look at this site. www.fieldlines.com/There are a lot of knowledgeable and helpful people there, just like here. The range of topics covered is much wider. You might find some of them helpful. Pete Pete, Thanks so much for the link. I'll give it a look over and post back sometime this evening. You guys are awesome! I feel like a child in a candy store LOL
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JJ
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Posts: 56
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Post by JJ on Jan 25, 2013 15:23:33 GMT -8
One of the most important things to have in a disaster scenario is potable water. A small biomass fueled furnace like a rocket heater or a small updraft gasifier furnace can be used to pasteurize water. Add a sediment filter and a charcoal filter to the mix, and such a system can generate good quality processed water at a high rate. In particular, it is possible to use heat regeneration to increase the efficiency of this process many fold. When water is heated for pasteurization, there is no need to maintain the water at an elevated temperature for long. It's possible to use the heated water to preheat the unpasteurized water before it moves into the heater. A remarkably compact copper heat exchanger in a counter flow (also called "contra" flow) configuration can preheat the incoming water very efficiently to decrease biomass fuel consumption many fold for the same mass of water processed. A pump can be devised to send water through the system at a controlled rate, but it's also possible to send water to an elevated tank with a hand pump to allow for gravity to do this work. To give you an idea of what's possible, an efficient system can pasteurize and filter 100 gallons of water while consuming on the order of 5 pounds of dry wood fuel by using heat regeneration (and this is a fairly conservative figure). Without this heat regeneration the dry wood fuel consumption would be well over 20 pounds. Awesome. Water is very much in need...even with all the donations of water bottles coming to every disaster. When we were down south on top of the mountain - there was little water for everyone and it had to be conserved. Because of the nature of the mountain - where not even the red cross would go up there...water was in demand. This is an excellent way to get people healthy water...using rocket technology. Thanks so much for adding that. It was something I'd not even looked into yet. You're awesome
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JJ
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Posts: 56
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Post by JJ on Jan 24, 2013 23:25:27 GMT -8
With this type of natural clay (all over our property under the top soil) - would it be feasible to construct rocket stove material as well as this final layer that you're describing to me? Or would I have to use store-bought fire clay and/or other store bought materials? It is extremely hard to dig...that's for sure. Last year, we were digging holes for our porch addition...and oh my....hand augging it wasn't fun.... Quite possibly. You will have to run some tests. I've posted how to run those tests several times.. For some reason, the search function isn't turning anything up.. Grrr! I'll have to either find it or re-write it.. Either way, it looks like my time for now is running short. No problem. I was reading some of your past posts today during my free time about the tests. I've found that using google by typing in something like the following helps: loam clay cob site:donkey32.proboards.com It will display threads with only those keywords in them. Learn something new every day eh? I can't get at the clay right now as the frost in the ground doesn't much like that type of thing lol. Our gravel pits that sell it aren't open for another 3 months. It will be interesting. I have found that doing this project...I am learning about a whole new area that I've never explored before and while this is the type of stuff I snored at during high school...it's very interesting to me now. I do appreciate all the time you spend here when you can - so please, do not feel rushed or anything like that. Tomorrow's a new day
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JJ
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Post by JJ on Jan 23, 2013 21:33:41 GMT -8
Jaime et al as a "student of architecture", a gentle suggestion; be mindful of the differences in climate/culture, "indiginous" (can't remember the proper term) architecture has usually evolved to address local issues, natural or manmade...and good design in any arena should involve the local people------------------appropriate, sustainable for emergencies/disasters add modular/adaptable/reconfigurable there are so many groups and designers doing good works, the previous links above will get you started, here are a couple more; search for Journey to Forever from soup to nuts, tons of heat, energy stuff Hex-a-yurt incredible flatpack design, made one for the kids from cardboard OneStrawrob.com suburban permaculture, "awesome sauce" blog Eliot Coleman, Four Season Harvest book on all season northern growing, website also hope that helps (will keep you in idea fodder for at least two weeks) my focus(!) is pretty spread out as i've been trying to teach low cost DIY solutions to aid those in an urban environment, even without a disaster, there is great need in the areas of food-shelter-energy-transportation, all are related in my mind... a friend of mine posts a clearing house of sorts on facebook called WorldCubed tons of stuff out there, enjoy, keep up the good work I am so proud to be communicating with people who are out there trying to make a difference in the world. You people just amaze me. I was just researching different types of soil throughout the United States - especially in my home state here of SD and also the places we've been to (down South, particularly). I had posted to Donkey in the Rocket Stoves for Heating section about soil. I haven't been to all 50 states helping disasters yet...so I can see I have my research cut out for me. With my team's help - your suggestions should prove to be wise...and we will indeed...consider the differences in regions, culture and other things. One thing I realized is that there are many places throughout the US that have little soil...and lots of "rocks." So I began looking into things (and consulted my set of Firefox books LOL) about using "wood" to build temporary and permanent housing and/or cave structures built into homes. That...looks to be a bit more time consuming than using loam types for structural stuff. Of course it's doable though...just a bit more labor intensive. You inspire me. What kind of work do you do for those areas? I mean - what is your specialty? I'm going to check out WorldCubed on Facebook. It sounds like we're of like-mind. I can just see this nation's political atmosphere getting worse...and all around me I see people suffering needlessly. I think people have gotten into the mindset that they should be "able" to live beyond their means...and that's just not the case. People can live in a nice place with nice things...without paying 3/4 of their paycheck into the bills...and I think what you're doing is awesome...simply awesome. Thanks a lot I am looking forward to your fodder for me!!!
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JJ
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Post by JJ on Jan 23, 2013 21:11:37 GMT -8
I was also looking at the R value of sand and clay....wow. Wow. The R-Value, or resistance value, of a soil is measured in a stabilometer test, and is usually estimated for pavement design. The R-value is the ability of a soil medium to resist lateral spreading due to an applied vertical load, such as tire loads. A range of values are established from 0 to 100, where 0 is the resistance of water and 100 is the resistance of steel. Typical R-values are presented below (from Lindeburg): Clay: 5-15 Sandy Clay: 10-20 Clayey Silts: 20-35 Sandy Silts: 20-55 Silty Sands: 25-70 Sand: 40-75 Gravel: 20-80 Good Crushed Rock: 75-90 geotechnicalinfo.com/r_value.htmlI was watching a video earlier today where a woman was teaching a group of people to put straw bales for the "bulk" of a wall - and then to cob over the straw bales. So I decided to look up the R value of a bale of straw: In 1997, the California Energy Commission (CEC) sponsored their own tests, working with Architectural Testing Inc. of Fresno, California. Two straw-bale walls were built and plastered on both sides: one had bales laid flat, producing a 23”-thick (580 mm) wall, and the other had the bales laid on edge, producing a 16”-thick (400 mm) wall. The walls were then tested in the company’s new state-of-the-art guarded-hot-box (ASTM C-236-style) apparatus. With the bales laid flat, the total R-value was R-26 (RSI-4.6) and, with the bales on edge, the R-value was R-33 (RSI-5.8). On a per-thickness basis, this is just R-1.13 to R-2.06 per inch (0.13 to 0.07 W/m°C). An explanation for these low R-values was provided by researchers Tav Commins and Nehemiah Stone in a paper presented at the ACEEE Summer Study (see page 14 for review of proceedings). On disassembly of the walls following the measurements, the walls were found to be quite wet. Water had been sprayed on the stucco to prevent cracking, and the walls were tested after less than a week of drying. This water was found to have wicked as much as 6” (150 mm) into the wall along the edges of some of the bales. Also, during construction the walls were compressed with polypropylene strapping, which left a 3” (80 mm) gap at the top; this gap was filled with loose straw. Upon disassembly, it was found that there were voids at the top of the wall and very loose packing in places.www.buildinggreen.com/auth/article.cfm/1998/9/1/R-Value-of-Straw-Bales-Lower-Than-Previously-Reported/
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JJ
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Post by JJ on Jan 23, 2013 20:59:12 GMT -8
What is the material that you used for your walls and the outside of that stove? Is that loam with silica...or...? That is a straw/clay plaster base layer over cob and topped with a clay alis layer. Cob is local, clay rich dirt, sand and long rice straw. Straw/clay base layer is local clay rich dirt made into slip, screened to get the rocks out and mixed with generous amounts of chopped rice straw. To get chopped straw, I run a strawbale through a chipper/shredder.. Alis is a clay based finish. Again, local dirt, screened fine, mixed with fine sand and in this case, some mica powder. The wall itself is light-straw, which is straw and clay slip (local clay dirt) mixed together and packed between forms, then the forms are removed and the wall is allowed to dry completely, finally it's plastered with the plasters discussed above. Very interesting. This rice straw that you're talking about - we don't have that over here. I just looked it up to see what it was. It's not too "unlike" our straw here. I wonder if it's "stiffer" than our straw here...as our straw here is pretty flimsy... A soil description of where I live - Brookings County, SD: www.docstoc.com/docs/789690/Soil-Survey-of-Brookings-County-South-DakotaFrom what I understand from my reading... Our soil has redoximorphic properties...and from what I read about what "that" is... zero to nine inches: silty clay and then from deeper... clay with redoximorphic features... a soil property, associated with wetness, which results from the reduction and oxidation of iron and manganese compounds in the soil after saturation with water and desaturation, respectively —note mottles (mixed colors) are common redoximorphic features of soilsdictionaryofforestry.org/dict/term/redoximorphic_featureWith this type of natural clay (all over our property under the top soil) - would it be feasible to construct rocket stove material as well as this final layer that you're describing to me? Or would I have to use store-bought fire clay and/or other store bought materials? It is extremely hard to dig...that's for sure. Last year, we were digging holes for our porch addition...and oh my....hand augging it wasn't fun....
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JJ
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Post by JJ on Jan 23, 2013 18:52:19 GMT -8
This was some of the tents that were being put up to help the residents that we helped put up and that....was a learning experience all in itself. It was amazing...like putting up circus tents: This was a lighting fixture that my husband Dave was helping to install: What the outside of the tent looks like:
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