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Post by independentenergy on Dec 4, 2023 16:57:58 GMT -8
I am about to replace a j tube system in a masonry kitchen, I am forced due to the size of the first bell and cooking plate to use a batch-box with a short riser (40/50cm).
My skills and my means are limited to a core in hard refractory bricks not insulated like the first developments of this system, but I can insulate the outside of the core and the riser with superwool.
I would like to know if anyone has had experience with this installation?
Precisely the short riser is octagonal better? Is it better p Channel or floor Channel? and finally, is an open system without secondary air possible? this system is used on the kaminmassa site but I don't understand the configuration it uses for secondary/primary air
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Post by peterberg on Dec 5, 2023 11:11:42 GMT -8
I am about to replace a j tube system in a masonry kitchen, I am forced due to the size of the first bell and cooking plate to use a batch-box with a short riser (40/50cm). My skills and my means are limited to a core in hard refractory bricks not insulated like the first developments of this system, but I can insulate the outside of the core and the riser with superwool. I would like to know if anyone has had experience with this installation? Precisely the short riser is octagonal better? Is it better p Channel or floor Channel? and finally, is an open system without secondary air possible? this system is used on the kaminmassa site but I don't understand the configuration it uses for secondary/primary air It would probably fit, yes. The core you are planning will probably also a 130 mm system, the riser height for this one is 47 cm. You can't build it with an octagonal riser, in that case the riser need to be higher in order to achieve the same volume. I'd say that the core could be built out of split firebricks, the ones that are 30 mm thickness. Insulated from the outside is OK, that is the way I have it here. There's no P-channel or floor channel required and I could test whether the thing is running properly with a spark screen only. If you want to have a door for it in a later stage that could be added since all the air is fed through the door frame. |
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Post by independentenergy on Dec 5, 2023 13:02:07 GMT -8
hi peter.
in reality my conditions are different, I have a 150 cm insulated stainless steel chimney 10 meters high, I have 60x220x110 refractory bricks and 4 cm tiles for the base and roof, I can cut the refractories to size to comply with the proportions, I think I should use a 150 core size since my chimney is 150.
with 50 high riser I have 30 cm of space from the cooking plate.
I can also build a round riser with superwool lining inside and fixed with waterglas .
Spark screen so an open core is possible?
if I used a door would I have to build a frame like the dsr3 with square sections and cuts for air?
I actually also have a P Channel ready if it were possible to use it
sorry for my English
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Post by independentenergy on Dec 6, 2023 4:48:31 GMT -8
the total ISA of the system is approximately 3,24 square meters without by pass
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Post by peterberg on Dec 6, 2023 8:11:55 GMT -8
I have a 150 cm insulated stainless steel chimney 10 meters high, I have 60x220x110 refractory bricks and 4 cm tiles for the base and roof, I can cut the refractories to size to comply with the proportions, I think I should use a 150 core size since my chimney is 150. The combination of a 130 mm system and a 150 mm chimney is a possibility, a 150 mm system and a 130 mm chimney is not. In fact, my 130 mm development model is coupled to about 1.5 m of 130 mm stove pipe and then widens to 150 mm, stainless steel, insulated and straight up. Moreover, the depth of a 150 mm Shorty, using those 60x220x110 mm firebricks would be something like 77 cm. Do you have that space available? with 50 high riser I have 30 cm of space from the cooking plate. A 150 mm system would require 54 cm internal height plus a bottom of course. It looks like it could be done. I can also build a round riser with superwool lining inside and fixed with waterglas. No round riser, just square. Each side of the square the same size as the width of the firebox. Spark screen so an open core is possible? I have to test that first, no confirmation as yet. if I used a door would I have to build a frame like the dsr3 with square sections and cuts for air? Yes, that's right. I actually also have a P Channel ready if it were possible to use it sorry for my English No P-channel required, same goes for open or closed system. We make do with a language that isn't our native one, that's alright as long as we both communicate in explicit terms. the total ISA of the system is approximately 3,24 square meters without by pass That concludes it, the 150 mm system is way too powerful for the setup you have there. Your J-tube happened to be a 150 mm system? The smaller batchrocket will be even more powerful than the J. You might need the bypass when starting cold. |
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Post by independentenergy on Dec 6, 2023 20:56:28 GMT -8
Hello Peter.
the depth is not a problem, part of the core will come out of the bell so that the riser remains in the center of the cooking plate, I will cover the external part to make it aesthetically acceptable so 77 cm is not a problem.
my idea of using a 150 core is given by the fact that the first bell has a refractory wall 6 cm thick (brick) then there is a space of about 2.5 cm now empty, then there is the second skin of 4 cm red bricks the cavity can be filled with material that is insulating or conductive based on the surface temperature, so the mass is quite consistent, the second bell instead has the refractory brick (6cm) a cardboard edge and then the usual brick from 4cm.
the idea was to cope with the mass with a powerful core.
in any case I could opt for a 140 core to have a power reserve.
but I need the cooking plate to be very hot so I would lean towards the 150 system, which would be the main cooking system there.
What I find complex however is the construction of the door with the air intakes inside the frame, is there a drawing of this door to understand how it is made and how to size the air intakes? Furthermore, the frame that remains inside the core is quite thick. Should the hearth depth calculation take this into account? The dimensions are the same as the batch box except for the first port which is 2.1B high and 0.4B wide and the riser is 5B which for a 150 system is high : 5x108= 540,I'm working on a sketch with schetchup. I'm not clear on the size of the final door.
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Post by peterberg on Dec 7, 2023 2:25:42 GMT -8
Hello Peter. the depth is not a problem, part of the core will come out of the bell so that the riser remains in the center of the cooking plate, I will cover the external part to make it aesthetically acceptable so 77 cm is not a problem. my idea of using a 150 core is given by the fact that the first bell has a refractory wall 6 cm thick (brick) then there is a space of about 2.5 cm now empty, then there is the second skin of 4 cm red bricks the cavity can be filled with material that is insulating or conductive based on the surface temperature, so the mass is quite consistent, the second bell instead has the refractory brick (6cm) a cardboard edge and then the usual brick from 4cm. I wasn't talking about the mass but the Internal Surface Area instead. A 130 mm normal batchrocket core could serve about 3.9 m² ISA. The core that I am working with is at least as powerful which would mean scaling up to a 150 mm system is way too powerful for the given ISA. the idea was to cope with the mass with a powerful core. in any case I could opt for a 140 core to have a power reserve. but I need the cooking plate to be very hot so I would lean towards the 150 system, which would be the main cooking system there. What is the required cooking plate temperature? At the moment, there's a space of roughly 85 cm above the core now and 10 cm from the top of the upper barrel the steel could easily get to 250 ºC. How hot the top is getting I don't know as yet, but I reckon it would be a lot more. What I find complex however is the construction of the door with the air intakes inside the frame, is there a drawing of this door to understand how it is made and how to size the air intakes? Yes, there is, I have to search for it but that could wait for the moment. Furthermore, the frame that remains inside the core is quite thick. Should the hearth depth calculation take this into account? The heart depth is through the normal calculation, the door frame is in front of that. The dimensions are the same as the batch box except for the first port which is 2.1B high and 0.4B wide and the riser is 5B which for a 150 system is high : 5x108= 540,I'm working on a sketch with schetchup. I'm not clear on the size of the final door. I am assuming you mean the final port, or end port. This is a rectangular opening as wide as the riser, at the moment it is 90% of chimney csa. Although I could end up with a 100% number all the same. |
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Post by martyn on Dec 7, 2023 5:06:17 GMT -8
Peter raised a good point about how hot do you want your hot plate?
I do a lot of hotplate cooking and find the J tube is perfect for this application .
My 6” J tube with a little mass and very well insulated vermiculite firebox and chimney can send my 10mm thick steel cooking plate above 500c in the center and offer 250c around the edges.
The beauty of a J tube is you can slow the burn down or increase the heat quite easily but a batch design is going to really heat up a cooking plate for at least one hour to way beyond normal cooking temperatures unless you can elevate the plate way above the riser.
My 6” vortex stove used a cooking plate about 8” above the stoves exit port and that would heat the plate cherry red! Making it quite unsuitable for cooking directly on the plate!
My 4” vortex has a similar performance to the 6” J tube but, I have adapted the design for cooking with a deep top box and that offers around 300-350 directly above the afterburner exit and around 240 around the edges.
I find that 350 center and 200 edges are just about perfect for cooking on a 22” hot plate.
I dont have any real life experience with Peters batch box designs but I have read a 6” batchbox can heat a barrel top to 900c +
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Post by independentenergy on Dec 7, 2023 9:23:44 GMT -8
Thanks Martyn for your intervention, I cook with the pan on the plate not directly, I think 350/400 are fine.
The space between the riser and the cooking plate (size 150) is 30 cm higher with smaller systems .
Could the 130 shorty project be able to reach this temperature? I have had a batch box for 8 years and it is a 150 core with a 120 cm thick wall, the surface temperature when fully operational reaches 100 degrees with a 115 chimney.
But I have no experience with small batches with a cooking plate.
I can't afford it to build on a permanent basis and then not be able to cook.
However, I trust Peter if he says that I can reach these temperatures with a 130
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Post by martyn on Dec 7, 2023 9:37:48 GMT -8
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Post by independentenergy on Dec 7, 2023 12:36:31 GMT -8
your system is very nice for my construction however I think I only need the data for the dsr3 port then I can start the construction with Peter's blessing obviously:-D |
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Post by peterberg on Dec 7, 2023 13:13:35 GMT -8
I think I only need the data for the dsr3 port then I can start the construction with Peter's blessing obviously:-D I am assuming you mean the DSR3 door assembly. There's one online as used for the DSR3 150 mm core: see pberg0.home.xs4all.nl/pictures/dev2021/DSR3core150.skp Of course you won't need the upper part of the frame. |
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Post by independentenergy on Dec 7, 2023 15:37:51 GMT -8
I think I only need the data for the dsr3 port then I can start the construction with Peter's blessing obviously:-D I am assuming you mean the DSR3 door assembly. There's one online as used for the DSR3 150 mm core: see pberg0.home.xs4all.nl/pictures/dev2021/DSR3core150.skp Of course you won't need the upper part of the frame. Peter if I wanted to adapt the door to a 130 system can I scale it with schetchup and would the measurements be correct? furthermore, the depth of the throat/entrance door of the riser is the thickness of the brick that I use is 6 centimeters ,too thick or is it okay? |
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Post by independentenergy on Dec 11, 2023 1:58:39 GMT -8
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Post by fruitbat on Dec 11, 2023 5:18:34 GMT -8
Interesting start! Could you share some information on the bricks and slabs used?
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