Post by searchingfool on Oct 8, 2023 10:06:37 GMT -8
Hi all,
I'm totally new to the forum although have read on and off.
Im in the process of building an aquaponic greenhouse - it is about 5 meters/12meters and about 2.5meters high -
Under the green house I have a 2.1 Meter water container ( that is under the entire greenhouse ) which reaches to about 2meter depth take away 35cm walls
It is lined and currently has some fish in it.
On one end of the green house in another 2m x 5 meter space - I'm building the water processing using barrels and such bacteria and mechanical combo ( supported by Solar for power which is already in place - 10Kw system, likely expanding to 20 this year w the price of electricity here going through the roof - am thinking I won't need UV lamps because the water is largely shielded from light ( but that is another discussion in a different forum I suppose, also keeping in mind that the platnts will be doing there thing)
Above the water processing part I'm building a Sauna - which is 2m/3m/2.2m - it is wood with alu reflectinginsulation and also mineral insulation all around approximately 2 inches insulation, two layers of wood inside and out altogether about 5 inches thick walls - ceiling twice that and floor twice that - I haven't yet finished so I haven't tested how easily it contains the heat.
I am in a climate similar to Northeaster US. 4 Seasons - if anyone wants to look it up Mestec Kralove, Czech Republic area
the floor of the Sauna is metal profiles which are welded and on top of which is a frame of 4cm x 6cm full length wood - at 10cm distance - over that is a layer of planks in perpendicular direction - all screwed and glued together.
Right now walls and ceiiing and floor are in but floor is not yet with the final layer - expecting to add another layer of finished sauna appropriate wood.
the floor of the aquaponics is a welded frame - with a zinc metal floor rated at 1 ton/m2 - if I had an opening large enough I should be able to drive a car in there and it shouldn't budge -
Foundation is 35cm concrete block filled w rebar and cement
the center has a second wall which goes all the way down to create a loop for the water to circulate around. This wall is also 35cm concrete w rebar
So what am I asking -
I would like to build a single source of heat for both greenhouse and Sauna - able to be redicted to Sauna when needed - and cutting off to only Aquaponic when not needing to heat the sauna. I want to try to make something that can be taken apart - and to this end I'm thinking to create concrete parts - stack them with insulation between - to use as mass - that mass would be across part of the floor in the greenhouse itself - and partly under the benches in the Sauna - at least that's what I'm thinking.
I'm planning to finish the Sauna before the greenhouse - although the green house is completely enclosed already - not all of the walls are airtight yet - so basically leaks like a sieve at the moment - except for the foundation which is insulated with 15cm of insulation going down 1meter deep so well below freezing level.
I could reinforce the Sauna floor to take up to 1 ton/m2 same as the greenhouse ( the floor there was done differently so currently does not have that kind of load bearing strength - but it is doable
Making a pebble based system seems easiest given the containers etc. are easy enough to build and piping with pebbles around it seems straight forward enough- but reading how it takes a long time to get it warmed up puts me off that idea for the sauna - for the greenhouse it would probably be ok. (I'm wondering here what size pebbles are most likely to be useful - I guess smaller is better here but we want rock and not sand - what about crushed stone - any thought given to that ?
I feel like. there are a couple of designs that are pretty well tested but I'm not clear on how long the bench could be - how I might approach the problem of having a bench split in two so that I can choose to heat only the first one or both when they are in series - where would I want to put the chimney ideally in that situation - and how much mass the bench for the aquaponic part should have and how much mass the part for the sauna should have -
Or is this just totally bad idea.
the challenge i see here besides the bench setup is that I want the sauna to heat up fast - whereas for the aquaponics it is more about radiating heat for an extended period of time and topping off the mass with more energy once in a while
thought of using the water itself - but I don't want to cook the fish prematurely
Given my load bearing capacity I could put a 40 cm bench in the center of the aquaponic green house - extending from the center to the side where the sauna is adjacent - so that's about 6meters - having the core somewhere around the center of the greenhouse - I could then go through the wall into the Sauna under the bench - where a mass can sit or where I could have a pipe based system to radiate - or even a small barrel - but I gues with that much distance between the core and this part a lot of friction would result -
on the other hand I could put the core say 1m from the wall where the sauna is adjacent to - then extend a bench to two sides - so two benches -
When Sauna is needed set up flanges or something to cut off the flow to the aquapoinics bench and only go to the Sauna bench - and vice versa - having the chimney close to the core location - which means having loops in the benches to bring the exhaust back toward the core -
Given the years of experience in this forum I thought I'd ask for opinions -
I think the bell options don't make sense for me due to my load limits - so am thinking of the barrels - w radiation - + benches - material as yet undetermined as per above -
Chimney is not built so I will size that accordingly. Will be insulated pipe through the ceiling of the greenhouse - maybe leaving some of the pipe uninsulated to let it help start the heating - expecting the Chimney to be about 4 meters high which is about 1 meter above the peak of the roof - plus or minus.
As I've mentioned briefly the cost of electricity has gone through the roof here - I have heat pumps currently for heat - oil is not a valid option here - gas is as bad as electric from cost perspective -
Wood is the best option - possibly also sawdust - there are these sawdust stoves I have seen here - I'm thinking to try one of those - but they are not as eco friendly - albeit sawdust is very cheap - at about 25 USD equivalent per ton/about 5m3
Same amount of wood processed to 33cm lengths and split is around 600USD per m3 equivalent - I'm not buying logs - for various reasons just is not practical for me. That could cut the wood cost by about half.
Once I figure this out I want to implement in my barn and in my house - I've just put a wood furnace back into the house - which heats water in the radiators through a 3000 liter accumulation tank (which is still there from a previous system I built)
Just for context of the motivation - I'm expecting to pay almost 10000 USD equivalent for electricity this year even w what I make in the solar panels which is around 11MW per year.
So ultimately I'm willing to spend some money to do this - and make myself just a bit more self sufficient
I won't get to the level of not needing electric but I have 12KW of batteries and expanding that soon - I have a water based house heating system which needs pumps ( I can't change everything because I have a very old stone house so stuck w some of what was there. I have 3 branches of water based radiator heating coming off the accumulation tank which I control independently. the tank has currently 3 sources of heat
1) Wood furnace - if anyone cares it is an Atmos www.atmos.eu/en/product/wood-gasification-boilers-dokogen not the fancy one but the simple one with a tube heat exchanger
2) Heat Pump - more for when we're not home for an extended period. Not ideal in winter w current prices of electric given the efficiency goes way down.
3) Direct coil in case all else fails to prevent freezing - we don't get many power outages so far ( maybe 2 short ones a year) like hrs not days.
So what I will learn doing the aquaponics and Sauna builds I hope to use - in house and barn
Well I've dumped some of what I've been thinking about
No I haven't ordered the videos I just saw but I'm in the process - mostly watched a bit of youtube and some various websites including the forums here. all of this came to a head for me here mostly due to the sanctions/Ukraine Russian war etc.
thanks for any thoughts at all
I'm totally new to the forum although have read on and off.
Im in the process of building an aquaponic greenhouse - it is about 5 meters/12meters and about 2.5meters high -
Under the green house I have a 2.1 Meter water container ( that is under the entire greenhouse ) which reaches to about 2meter depth take away 35cm walls
It is lined and currently has some fish in it.
On one end of the green house in another 2m x 5 meter space - I'm building the water processing using barrels and such bacteria and mechanical combo ( supported by Solar for power which is already in place - 10Kw system, likely expanding to 20 this year w the price of electricity here going through the roof - am thinking I won't need UV lamps because the water is largely shielded from light ( but that is another discussion in a different forum I suppose, also keeping in mind that the platnts will be doing there thing)
Above the water processing part I'm building a Sauna - which is 2m/3m/2.2m - it is wood with alu reflectinginsulation and also mineral insulation all around approximately 2 inches insulation, two layers of wood inside and out altogether about 5 inches thick walls - ceiling twice that and floor twice that - I haven't yet finished so I haven't tested how easily it contains the heat.
I am in a climate similar to Northeaster US. 4 Seasons - if anyone wants to look it up Mestec Kralove, Czech Republic area
the floor of the Sauna is metal profiles which are welded and on top of which is a frame of 4cm x 6cm full length wood - at 10cm distance - over that is a layer of planks in perpendicular direction - all screwed and glued together.
Right now walls and ceiiing and floor are in but floor is not yet with the final layer - expecting to add another layer of finished sauna appropriate wood.
the floor of the aquaponics is a welded frame - with a zinc metal floor rated at 1 ton/m2 - if I had an opening large enough I should be able to drive a car in there and it shouldn't budge -
Foundation is 35cm concrete block filled w rebar and cement
the center has a second wall which goes all the way down to create a loop for the water to circulate around. This wall is also 35cm concrete w rebar
So what am I asking -
I would like to build a single source of heat for both greenhouse and Sauna - able to be redicted to Sauna when needed - and cutting off to only Aquaponic when not needing to heat the sauna. I want to try to make something that can be taken apart - and to this end I'm thinking to create concrete parts - stack them with insulation between - to use as mass - that mass would be across part of the floor in the greenhouse itself - and partly under the benches in the Sauna - at least that's what I'm thinking.
I'm planning to finish the Sauna before the greenhouse - although the green house is completely enclosed already - not all of the walls are airtight yet - so basically leaks like a sieve at the moment - except for the foundation which is insulated with 15cm of insulation going down 1meter deep so well below freezing level.
I could reinforce the Sauna floor to take up to 1 ton/m2 same as the greenhouse ( the floor there was done differently so currently does not have that kind of load bearing strength - but it is doable
Making a pebble based system seems easiest given the containers etc. are easy enough to build and piping with pebbles around it seems straight forward enough- but reading how it takes a long time to get it warmed up puts me off that idea for the sauna - for the greenhouse it would probably be ok. (I'm wondering here what size pebbles are most likely to be useful - I guess smaller is better here but we want rock and not sand - what about crushed stone - any thought given to that ?
I feel like. there are a couple of designs that are pretty well tested but I'm not clear on how long the bench could be - how I might approach the problem of having a bench split in two so that I can choose to heat only the first one or both when they are in series - where would I want to put the chimney ideally in that situation - and how much mass the bench for the aquaponic part should have and how much mass the part for the sauna should have -
Or is this just totally bad idea.
the challenge i see here besides the bench setup is that I want the sauna to heat up fast - whereas for the aquaponics it is more about radiating heat for an extended period of time and topping off the mass with more energy once in a while
thought of using the water itself - but I don't want to cook the fish prematurely
Given my load bearing capacity I could put a 40 cm bench in the center of the aquaponic green house - extending from the center to the side where the sauna is adjacent - so that's about 6meters - having the core somewhere around the center of the greenhouse - I could then go through the wall into the Sauna under the bench - where a mass can sit or where I could have a pipe based system to radiate - or even a small barrel - but I gues with that much distance between the core and this part a lot of friction would result -
on the other hand I could put the core say 1m from the wall where the sauna is adjacent to - then extend a bench to two sides - so two benches -
When Sauna is needed set up flanges or something to cut off the flow to the aquapoinics bench and only go to the Sauna bench - and vice versa - having the chimney close to the core location - which means having loops in the benches to bring the exhaust back toward the core -
Given the years of experience in this forum I thought I'd ask for opinions -
I think the bell options don't make sense for me due to my load limits - so am thinking of the barrels - w radiation - + benches - material as yet undetermined as per above -
Chimney is not built so I will size that accordingly. Will be insulated pipe through the ceiling of the greenhouse - maybe leaving some of the pipe uninsulated to let it help start the heating - expecting the Chimney to be about 4 meters high which is about 1 meter above the peak of the roof - plus or minus.
As I've mentioned briefly the cost of electricity has gone through the roof here - I have heat pumps currently for heat - oil is not a valid option here - gas is as bad as electric from cost perspective -
Wood is the best option - possibly also sawdust - there are these sawdust stoves I have seen here - I'm thinking to try one of those - but they are not as eco friendly - albeit sawdust is very cheap - at about 25 USD equivalent per ton/about 5m3
Same amount of wood processed to 33cm lengths and split is around 600USD per m3 equivalent - I'm not buying logs - for various reasons just is not practical for me. That could cut the wood cost by about half.
Once I figure this out I want to implement in my barn and in my house - I've just put a wood furnace back into the house - which heats water in the radiators through a 3000 liter accumulation tank (which is still there from a previous system I built)
Just for context of the motivation - I'm expecting to pay almost 10000 USD equivalent for electricity this year even w what I make in the solar panels which is around 11MW per year.
So ultimately I'm willing to spend some money to do this - and make myself just a bit more self sufficient
I won't get to the level of not needing electric but I have 12KW of batteries and expanding that soon - I have a water based house heating system which needs pumps ( I can't change everything because I have a very old stone house so stuck w some of what was there. I have 3 branches of water based radiator heating coming off the accumulation tank which I control independently. the tank has currently 3 sources of heat
1) Wood furnace - if anyone cares it is an Atmos www.atmos.eu/en/product/wood-gasification-boilers-dokogen not the fancy one but the simple one with a tube heat exchanger
2) Heat Pump - more for when we're not home for an extended period. Not ideal in winter w current prices of electric given the efficiency goes way down.
3) Direct coil in case all else fails to prevent freezing - we don't get many power outages so far ( maybe 2 short ones a year) like hrs not days.
So what I will learn doing the aquaponics and Sauna builds I hope to use - in house and barn
Well I've dumped some of what I've been thinking about
No I haven't ordered the videos I just saw but I'm in the process - mostly watched a bit of youtube and some various websites including the forums here. all of this came to a head for me here mostly due to the sanctions/Ukraine Russian war etc.
thanks for any thoughts at all