|
|
Post by scottiniowa on Oct 23, 2020 8:59:57 GMT -8
To the great designers and testers of the various systems of the rocket stoves I am fairly convinced Peter's DSR2 stove as he has generously posted dimensions on, will be a good place for me. (to use) 6" size This is a pdf file, pdfhost.io/v/qtt9IzH6._DSR2_Base_burn_chamber_step_1.pdf, but absolutely no different than what he has shown for a "open" box design. in following through with a few questions, I see the ISA should be 57 ft squared (not counting base) My question then, can I make as simple as what Peter showed pdfhost.io/edit?doc=e7393767-11cd-4c58-8057-7a69bef34c96this design/shape of one large bell, would work great for me and to be honest, as simple to build as anything out there. So this brings up just a few questions: If this is the way to go for me, -do I add insulation to the exterior of the DRS2? -Do I make just a bit of riser off the top of the DRS2? if so suggested height -would love to place/support the DRS2 above the floor as shown above, and in doing so, keep at least 12" from top of bell with more being better. -if so, can the support be metal as shown? (angle iron would be easy for me, as I run an iron fab. shop) hopefully the links work, if not, I will have to find a better way. thanks in advance |
|
|
|
Post by peterberg on Oct 25, 2020 7:46:38 GMT -8
....I see the ISA should be 57 ft squared (not counting base) My question then, can I make as simple as what Peter showed this design/shape of one large bell, would work great for me and to be honest, as simple to build as anything out there. The bell shown is made entirely assembled out of cast components. The same shape built out of bricks (red bricks, concrete blocks, adobe bricks, you name it) can be done. All wall surface above the core's exhaust need to be lined with refarctory material with 1/2" superwool between the layers. See the Mallorca and Brussels build how this can be achieved. The top lid can be done with steel T-bars and refractory bricks/slabs plus lots of superwool again. Construction is done like this probably a 100 times, and it is reliable. So this brings up just a few questions: If this is the way to go for me, -do I add insulation to the exterior of the DRS2? Yes, good idea. Since it's a simple box design wrapping superwool around it is very easy. -Do I make just a bit of riser off the top of the DRS2? if so suggested height No, that isn't necessary. And it isn't tested like that, so I am unable to tell you what the effect would be. -would love to place/support the DRS2 above the floor as shown above, and in doing so, keep at least 12" from top of bell with more being better. -if so, can the support be metal as shown? (angle iron would be easy for me, as I run an iron fab. shop) Yes, can be done, no problem. |
|
|
|
Post by scottiniowa on Oct 26, 2020 6:25:06 GMT -8
The bell shown is made entirely assembled out of cast components. The same shape built out of bricks (red bricks, concrete blocks, adobe bricks, you name it) can be done. All wall surface above the core's exhaust need to be lined with refarctory material with 1/2" superwool between the layers. See the Mallorca and Brussels build how this can be achieved. The top lid can be done with steel T-bars and refractory bricks/slabs plus lots of superwool again. Construction is done like this probably a 100 times, and it is reliable.
These are free and look nice, but might be the case of a deal spoiler, and I am NOT thinking of these in place of fire bricks. Strictly mass |
|
|
|
Post by peterberg on Oct 26, 2020 7:40:06 GMT -8
I can see it is good that I asked, as I was planning on the build process without the super wool in places, but understand why it is required. I have a great deal of granite, 1 1/16" thick by dimensions of 4" i.e. 4x4" smallest up to 24x24" largest, with all kinds of 8x16,12x20" and so on. I was intending to use this as my mass, while this still may work, I have to rethink this process with the super wool involved and fire brick. Granite would work fine, real heavy so it can store a lot of heat. Would I maintain the same thickness of mass? Not necessarily, the inside is just a liner, nothing more. On that level the wall could be sticking out inside, outside or both, your choice. The Brussels build is an example since there's one layer of bricks that is placed at right angles with the layer below and above. So the wall is slightly thicker above that layer, no problem. Mark that the lid on the bell is exclusively resting on the liner. This way it can freely expand and contract without pushing against the outer skin. Where the super wool is used I was planning on 4 layers of my granite, so about 4.25" thick for the entire bell. I use these pieces dry stacked for my waste oil burners in shops, work very well but that is a whole different story. I fail to see what you mean here, you mean the stone pieces on its side? And mortared with what? In my mind all pieces should be cut up and layed flat in a running bond using a clay/sand mortar. You run an iron fab shop, is granite in a steel frame/grid an option? This involves lots more superwool in order to make it reasonably gas tight but it can probably be done. Would be a great way to show what can be done using steel and granite. |
|
|
|
Post by scottiniowa on Oct 26, 2020 9:52:49 GMT -8
I can see it is good that I asked, as I was planning on the build process without the super wool in places, but understand why it is required. I have a great deal of granite, 1 1/16" thick by dimensions of 4" i.e. 4x4" smallest up to 24x24" largest, with all kinds of 8x16,12x20" and so on. I was intending to use this as my mass, while this still may work, I have to rethink this process with the super wool involved and fire brick. Granite would work fine, real heavy so it can store a lot of heat. OK, this is good, and I can see, that to explain better, I will draw things out, which is no problem..stay tuned for this.Would I maintain the same thickness of mass? Not necessarily, the inside is just a liner, nothing more. On that level the wall could be sticking out inside, outside or both, your choice. The Brussels build is an example since there's one layer of bricks that is placed at right angles with the layer below and above. So the wall is slightly thicker above that layer, no problem. Mark that the lid on the bell is exclusively resting on the liner. This way it can freely expand and contract without pushing against the outer skin. When it is resting like this, I presume that there are strips/pad of gas seal- guess I answered my own question. (again will draw this out a bit)Where the super wool is used I was planning on 4 layers of my granite, so about 4.25" thick for the entire bell. I use these pieces dry stacked for my waste oil burners in shops, work very well but that is a whole different story. I fail to see what you mean here, you mean the stone pieces on its side? And mortared with what? In my mind all pieces should be cut up and layed flat in a running bond using a clay/sand mortar. yes, layers on the side, with thin edge vertical, again, a picture will be worth 1000 words, I have built several benches using refractory mortor and it has stuck/held well. In this case, I might get a bit more expansion, contraction going on, but the flue gas would have a long route to excape, detail will come.You run an iron fab shop, is granite in a steel frame/grid an option? yes, but will reserve that as an option, in case my present idea doesn't look like it will pan out.
This involves lots more superwool in order to make it reasonably gas tight but it can probably be done. Would be a great way to show what can be done using steel and granite. yes it would, stay tuned.. |
|
|
|
Post by scottiniowa on Oct 26, 2020 18:40:26 GMT -8
I forgot to ask, is the area where the super wool is used with fire brick, above the DSR2 cores, part of the calculation of the ISA 57' for 6" system. This would have a great bearing on the actual size of the single square bell.
|
|
|
|
Post by scottiniowa on Oct 27, 2020 1:57:18 GMT -8
this will better show the layout of my bell sides this is only to show the corner, pdfhost.io/v/c5BSKsA55_layered_bell_assembly.pdfI don't know if expansion will destroy a corner lap like this, (never done a 4 layer, under heat before) Notice that for flue gas to travel out, the Z path it would have to take and encounter mortor on every direction change. Vertically the joints would also be miss matched for the same reason, i.e. bell one may start with 12" tall, with 8" for layer 2, 4" for layer 3, and finally could have large 16 or 24" blocks that actually get viewed for outside layer. 4.5" thick for mass x vertical height, and horizontal width. |
|
dcp
New Member
Posts: 35
|
Post by dcp on Oct 27, 2020 2:33:48 GMT -8
@scotiniova. I build mine 200 mm sidewinder with one skin briks layed on side 11 cm thykk up 20 cm under the riser exit. Over that height is to skins separated with 13mm superwooll. The inner skin is 64 mm chamote thykk. Outer skin is regular briks layed allso on 64 mm side: imgshare.io/search/images/?q=Rbb8As I understand we need the gap betwen skins because the inner skin is hotter than the outer and will expand more. Superwooll in the middle just to hold the gap open. Stove masons here says is ok with cardboard between. It will not burn because of low temp. and oxigen missing inn between skins. I do have now 3 weeks firing inn and all is ok. |
|
|
|
Post by scottiniowa on Oct 27, 2020 6:52:42 GMT -8
dcp, thank you for the insight on this project... As we all know there are so many ways to do, and yours looks great. I am probably getting myself into a "to restrictive box" with the present plans, as I don't have enough expansion area built in. This kinda goes back to what Peter said on the possibility of using steel/with granite and super wool to seal. Good things to consider. Certainly don't want to get into a situation where the "bell" tries to push itself apart (I am guessing that is what would happen with the present design of mine) no harm done as it is strictly being drawn and thought about presently.
|
|
|
|
Post by peterberg on Oct 27, 2020 12:21:29 GMT -8
I forgot to ask, is the area where the super wool is used with fire brick, above the DSR2 cores, part of the calculation of the ISA 57' for 6" system. This would have a great bearing on the actual size of the single square bell. All the inside surface areas are part of the calculation, excluding the floor. One reason to insulate the core is it won't count as ISA this way. |
|
dcp
New Member
Posts: 35
|
Post by dcp on Oct 27, 2020 22:47:54 GMT -8
«I am probably getting myself into a "to restrictive box" with the present plans»
He he you are not the first one.
Someone called this state of mind «paralisis by analisis».
Cannot remember who but it was spot on.
I did watch the clips on youtube , read this forum and studied the plans on batchrocket.eu for about 3 years.
Wish you all the best with your build
|
|
|
|
Post by scottiniowa on Oct 28, 2020 12:43:19 GMT -8
Still working through various items on the square "single bell" and coming along nicely. please note, that I have between 22.3 and 22.9" (582 mm) between top of DRS2 and bottom surface of the bell. pdfhost.io/v/8thXr3Tpc_large_bell_assemblyshowing_height_above_top_DSR2_port.pdfCan I reduce space to closer to 12" or 290mm or roughly half of what I have now? I think that is how it was stated that this would be the minimum space to work well. I cab of course make this work to almost any distance by varying the height of the stand. This will save some fire brick splits, ease my build some, and expose more mass to the heat/exhaust without the super wool. I can easily do by simply raising the DSR2 unit in its entirety. which in reality makes my loading the stove/lighting and observing the burn easier. Getting closer, I have found a way to use my granite for mass without having contraction issues in corners... getting closer. |
|
dcp
New Member
Posts: 35
|
Post by dcp on Oct 29, 2020 0:28:02 GMT -8
Still working through various items on the square "single bell" and coming along nicely. please note, that I have between 22.3 and 22.9" (582 mm) between top of DRS2 and bottom surface of the bell. pdfhost.io/v/8thXr3Tpc_large_bell_assemblyshowing_height_above_top_DSR2_port.pdfCan I reduce space to closer to 12" or 290mm or roughly half of what I have now? I think that is how it was stated that this would be the minimum space to work well. I cab of course make this work to almost any distance by varying the height of the stand. This will save some fire brick splits, ease my build some, and expose more mass to the heat/exhaust without the super wool. I can easily do by simply raising the DSR2 unit in its entirety. which in reality makes my loading the stove/lighting and observing the burn easier. Getting closer, I have found a way to use my granite for mass without having contraction issues in corners... getting closer. My build is sidewinder with burning box sitting on briks who sitt on bell floor. There is only 11 cm between bell floor and bottom of burning box. I had to go so low because of riser( 120 high from bell floor) and overhead to the inner topp of bell. Total height of bell is 2,25 meters. This because of low ceiling. |
|
|
|
Post by scottiniowa on Nov 4, 2020 13:54:51 GMT -8
With the above given thoughts, I have been working towards this single square bell, with a present height of 6' or 72" Plus the mass thickness on top (4-6") While staying close to the magic 57 ft squared ISA, I find that have about 4" on the sides but very little on front feed side and almost NONE at the rear. pdfhost.io/v/m8wA9OvpG_top_view_showing_side_opening.pdfI have a single flue hole at base, with a opposing one for possible yearly clean out.. that is all fairly simple if ok. You can see that I have used 4 layers of granite for mass, (I have this free and on hand) and have figured out a simple method for excluding any leakage of flue gases. Hopefully you can see the use of fire brick above the DSR2 internal burn unit. Can I use ceramic paper to put between bricks and granite for expansion movement? pdfhost.io/v/7B8nmRjMl_ISO_view_showing_fire_brick_and_granite_mass.pdf note: I have cut away various parts to show how the intended build is to be. And as has been previously noted, I can wrap/insulate the DSR2 unit fairly easy. This bell shown is just shy of the 57 ft squared. (less than 1/2 foot) or by going up another 4" I can go over. While I like how all this looks, it is starting to look like that I could build this unit outside the bell, and direct the gasses into the bell at a fairly high level and let the bell do its work unrestricted. At this stage I am very flexible as NO hard setting has been done, but I don't want to go forward to find out that "you should have done this or that" As you can see there will be much cutting of the granite pieces, but I do have the stone saw for that. I can create most any view if there are things in question, just let me know. thank you. |
|
dcp
New Member
Posts: 35
|
Post by dcp on Nov 4, 2020 23:05:22 GMT -8
I am very curious about how you will set those 4 layers of granite to behave like one.
Why not laying on the flat side of the granite?? you get the same thickness.
Now after burning around one month in my oven I think that it would be safer/easy to build only 1 skin ( 11 cm wide) of refractory bricks over the riser and plaster it.
Nothing wrong with with 2 skins but more easy to build on flat side than the narrow side of bricks.
I do think that more layers are not better than one.
|
|
