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Post by patamos on May 8, 2019 13:31:07 GMT -8
Well, it only took me two years to get around to posting this video... But i guess that also gave me time to troubleshoot and tweak the dimensions.
The fire box shape (with sloping roof) is certainly not as efficient as Peter's or Trev's. Too much excess air floating over during coaling phase. Better to go with what they have done.
The 2 main things i want to mention are: - the simplicity and durability of the sliding glass door set up. 2 winters now of smacking into it while chopping firewood nearby... no problems. And slides much more freely when i bother to clean out the bottom channel after emptying ashes. - the addition of a 1.5" wide by 4" long ceramic glass obstruction into the centre of the oversized throat. Makes fora sort of inverted rams horn effect.
I've taken other videos with less background noise, but this is the one that most clearly shows the inverted rams horn. Usually it is so bright that the camera shows only an over-exposed bright white ball of flame. So in this vid i added a few sticks of slightly damp wood to tone down the brightness for a while.
[/video] [/div]
Thanks to Trev for loading it up for me  hope you enjoy
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Post by wiscojames on May 8, 2019 17:55:09 GMT -8
That's really great. Thanks for sharing.
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Post by peterberg on May 9, 2019 0:34:29 GMT -8
Patamos, I hope you won't mind me asking: what aspect of the DSR2 is in that video? You say it's two years before you got around to posting this video, well in advance of even the term DSR2 is mentioned.
I set about checking a construction proposed and built by Travis in early fall of 2018. Development of DSR2 followed from that at the end of October. As far as I can see there isn't a short riser behind the firebox, neither there's a slightly oversized floor channel in there.
I'm inclined to think there are some aspects of the DSR1 in there like a top port, isn't it?
Are you OK with me changing the title to "DSR1 Aryan with sliding door"?
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Post by Vortex on May 9, 2019 8:19:50 GMT -8
'DSR Aryan with sliding door' was the title he mentioned when he sent me the video to upload, so I presume it's a mistake.
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Post by patamos on May 9, 2019 9:38:29 GMT -8
Yes Peter, my mistake. Please change the title. I used the 'DSR2' reference because of what it has in common with your experiments with post-throat mid-chamber obstructions - although this one is more mid-throat. I added the 'aryan', in that it has something in common with Trev's primary and secondary air feed experiments. And i used both names because of the additional upper chamber triple shoe box that yourself and Trev were discussing. But as i was not going for the double rams horn with long narrow throat... I'm not sure if the 'aryan' terms is accurate. Perhaps 'Inverse Aryan'. Also, given that the DSR1 and 2 variations do not point specifically to the triple shoe box chambers, perhaps the most accurate name for it is 'TSR Inverse Aryan'. But I am ope to suggestions... Yes, I built it in Oct 2017. The 'fire fountain' had been in my mind for years, so I initially built with 13.5" tall firebox, various heights of stub riser with partial openings up its front-sidewall, and one bigger upper reburn chamber with exit port low to the front side. I was calling it a 'Slide ways J' and was going for a sort of all out burn eco box with air slots along the lower side walls, and a roiling eddy effect in the upper chamber. I wanted to see if there was some merit to Kutzenov's idea of free gas stratification in the secondary burn chamber if we gave the flue gasses a chance to slow down a bit and hang around, kind of like what Matt is achieving with side exit into half risers.
Those configurations burned well (by common masonry heater standards) on full loads but not so well on smaller loads, and rarely while coaling. Too much air pulling over top the fuel early and late in the burn cycle. So I shrunk the box height by 4.5" which helped a lot. And went about playing with a number of different riser heights and then DS and TS upper chamber(s)configurations. For a while i was trialing variations of shapes along the lines of your early experiments with rocket siphon shapes.
I eventually eventually found this current configuration the best - given the limitations of my sloping ceiling fire box. I doubt this configuration burns as clean as your DSR2. Still has too much air flow over the fuel load. I'll probably one day rebuild the firebox to flatten out the ceiling and install a secondary-air floor channel. This is why i have yet to finish plaster the unit. But all in all I am happy to see that my own experiments (whilst out of touch with the forum) led me in a similar direction to your discoveries with the DSR2.
The addition of the obstruction in the middle of the throat made significant difference. And the turbulence patterns evoked by slightly different shaped obstructions can be marked. In river talk we would call such obstructions 'strainers' (as in a tree that has fallen into the current) or rock features, both of which can create powerful back eddy effects. I would be curious to see how a DSR2 with this kind of wider throat and obstruction in the middle would perform on a testo. (Yet another request for you to experiment - as if you aren't busy enough  |
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Post by patamos on May 14, 2019 14:14:38 GMT -8
That's really great. Thanks for sharing. Thanks Wisco |
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Post by marcios on May 30, 2019 18:45:36 GMT -8
Hi patamos, very interesting!
Could give more details and project dimensions?
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Post by Orange on May 30, 2019 21:05:02 GMT -8
nice vid so you're happy with the power output. How quickly does it heat up the space? |
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Post by patamos on Jun 11, 2019 21:34:45 GMT -8
Ya power output is fine. The fast heat from the front upper window is strong. Radiates across the room and gets the 400sq.ft room from below 0c to shirt and sweater zone in 15 minutes. Dimensions of fire box are 18" deep x 9" tall x x7.5" wide. This was so i could slap a bunch of bricks together without cutting. roof is three splits with a space where the last one would go at rear. So the port is 4.5 deep by 7.5 wide. The glass trip wire/plate is about 1.5" wide, hanging out most of the way to the back of the throat. It feels like a good way to mingle turbulence with residency time. The 'roiling eddy' effect First bell chamber (could also be called a spacious downdraft chamber) is about 18" wiode by 20" deep by 30" tall. Then a fast flue run to the left. Then a bell about 1' tall by 20" deep coming back. With the start up bypass i could have coaxed another 1 or more sq.m. ISA without trouble. My favorite part of it all is the sliding door. Saves a whole lotta time/$ on welding up a door and frame... On the matter of roiling eddys: heatkit.com/research/lopez-2015-fire%20baffle.htm |
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Post by marcios on Jun 20, 2019 5:55:19 GMT -8
Hi,
Some picture/drawing of the port with "trip wire/plate"?
Why rectangle port side to side compared to front to back?
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Post by patamos on Jun 21, 2019 8:18:01 GMT -8
Hi Marcios,
It takes me ages to get around to taking and posting pictures. Took 2 years to get that video up. BEst bet is to take a closer look at the video. Also, you can always just set a long trip wire/plate on the firebox ceiling bricks and over hang it into the port however you like. There can be pretty crazy effects from even slightly different shapes and configurations of the plate.
Rectangle port is side to side for simplicity of build. If 4 splits would make a solid ceiling, the rear one is removed. I was also originally going for a fire fountain effect with a 6" heat riser sending the gasses straight up to the cook top and then rolling forward from there (as in no middle shoe box shelf). It burned great on full loads but not as well on smaller loads and coaling. As mentioned the sloping shape of the fire box ceiling (secondary air plenum) is a contributing factor. I would not recommend sloping the ceiling.
I like the Aryan spirals that Trev is producing. And have built other heaters since with that kind of long narrow port. This was just a way of creating a more chaotic mixing of gasses.
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Post by marcios on Jun 21, 2019 15:37:14 GMT -8
Pretty clear about the strip and port, only confused about "sloping shape of ...the secundary air plenum" (non horizontal, in what angule?) is a contributing factor ( to negative?).
Really, there's no way not to like the Aryan fountain and Trev's core design sounds a formidable solucion.
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Post by patamos on Jun 21, 2019 19:24:06 GMT -8
Oh ya, Trev's core is a fine way to go. I built a few of his earlier version vortex as full size masonry heaters with benches. This was a build/mod concurrent with his triple layer/deck/box aryan. And i settled on the triple as well. Peter's early look into double shoe with a fire fountain showed a more chaotic post-port mix to burn a bit cleaner, and also reminded me of a russian video Docbb shared a few years back. I always wanted to build one so went for it (scaled down). Burned great going full tilt, but had too much over-air and riser suck later in the burn. So morphing it into a triple deck/layer/box proved cleaner. Re the sloping ceiling. Imagine you are looking at it side cross section. The front of the fire box is 9" tall. Box is 18" deep, but at the 3/4" mark where the port begins the ceiling is 13.5 " tall. That wedge shape above the fire box is a air pre-heating plenum chamber with a sloping ceramic glass bottom (also the ceiling of firebox) with a narrow slit above the door for secondary air intake, and a thin wide slit 1/4" x 7.5" into the throat/port. It really draws hard during over fueling on heavy reloads, and always draws a bit. But the extra space/volume/height heading towards the rear of the fore box makes for easier air overflow late in the burn cycle. If I only burn a smallish load the tail end can get a bit smokey. So, flat ceiling makes more sense to me.
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Post by marcios on Jun 23, 2019 9:49:09 GMT -8
Lucky to have your great experience! Now I can see that sloping ceiling with the inventive glass air pre-heating plenum. Tks! In upper-port models it seems that air stream above fuel towards port will remain a central issue, especially at the final burn stage. Trev's loading technique minimizes it a lot, so "we can continuously move forward in refinement by air inlet configurations, dynamic controlers and lining materials!" as I just posted In "Vortex Stove". How about that sodium silicate with sand you mentioned before, to coat or line the fire chambers? |
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Post by patamos on Jun 23, 2019 18:30:23 GMT -8
How about that sodium silicate with sand you mentioned before, to coat or line the fire chambers? Thanks Marcios. the SSS mix is good for patching small busted areas in the fore box. Sticks pretty well to softer low grade firebricks. Kinda helps as mortar between pre-used kiln IFBricks. BUt it will fall out of any thing softer like ceramic fibre board - unless you form a good shell with it.
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