LTGS geopolymers vs ceramic fibre board

[Deleted]

Jan 7, 2018 4:18:31 GMT -8 Jura said:

.. but yesterday I kept a piece of flyash geopolymer and it was hard and not breakable in hands. (as it was commercial I could not get the recipe)

Fly ash geopolymers are not a secret.
Fly ash can be hardened with waterglass or an LTGS binder.
It cannot be sufficiently hardened with lye alone and remains brittle.
Even Class F fly ash contains usually enough calcium for ambient curing.

[Deleted]

Thanks @karl for your answer !

My chamotte is not the red chamotte, it's 0-0.02 mm 42% AL2O3 chamotte. Is it still improper to use as a binder ?

Karl, is not that I wasn't trying to follow your recipes but I think you underestimate the complexity of what you're sharing here, as someone who is obviously passionated by geopolymers and who has spent a lot of time thinking about it.

Maybe your could consider (and that's just a suggestion) defining all your terminology, structure your recipes with clear bold titles, what the mix is supposed to achieve, what are the risks with this and this ingredient, maybe a picture, a paragraph for the ingredients and then a recipe until the end (not just the binder, but the whole process)..

Maybe the hardest thing for me was that the information is spread everywhere on differents posts and threads, so I haven't found a "standalone" post that was clear enough to get me from ground level to a level where I can have a decent chance of making just a refractory geopolmer brick.

regards,

[esbjornaneer]

Yasin, I second your hopes and wishes for recipes. That is what I hoped for in the tread I started. I have to the best of my ability combined the information into my post of today there, but have not yet managed to make a sample that passes the 24hr water test (I have 3 samples still curing).

[coastalrocketeer]

I would like to offer to HELP Karl in the reconstitution of the wealth of valuable information he has presented in SO many places here into a more consistent and understandable how-to guide. I also find it VERY hard to keep straight the voluminous amounts of information about different geopolymer methods and raw materials, from different posts at different times, and this is confounded by occasional translation errors/difficulty in my understanding of Karl's English wording choices.

Also there are issues where different terms describe the same product in different places that are obvious to the chemistry knowledgable but have to be deciphered by chemistry dummies like me.

Karl, I don't k ow what your current state of health is, or what further energy you're willing to invest in helping us create such an English compilation of your advice and experience, but I think it would really help ensure the incredible knowledge you have is able to be carried on by others to further the adoption of your ideas and research, in a way that will hopefully help MANY humans warm their bodies and homes in ways that are MOST compatible with our ability to exist symbiotically with the planet that gives us all life.

I imagine that many of us who have a similar interest in seeing these geopolymer mixes replace expensive and lower performing, less customizable, commercial refractory products are interested in helping get all that beautiful intelligence you share, into a format that is an easily accessible sort of "Geopolymers for Dummies, and Smart People Too!" resource.

So please do not hesitate to let me know if you could and would be able to use my and others assistance, in collecting and clarifying your meaning for us highly interested but confused geopolymer stidents, in collecting the info from, the many disparate threads, organizing it, and removing the extraneous, incorrect, or off topic posts by others, creating a "glossary of terms", and sorting all of this incredible information into coverage of the use of all the various binder and aggregate ingredients, caustic and acidic ingredients, additives, and your preferred mixing methods for geopolymers in general and for specific method or material based subsets.

[coastalrocketeer]

I envision such a volume having an index, a glossary of terms, basic recipes for various methods and materials, preferred methods for gepolymer binder creation, and best practices for locating and investigating the suitability of local clays, clay soils, and exploiting locally available mineral sources (eg: Specific types of rock or other materials)

I sincerely hope you see and understand the need for, and logic in, developing a sole source repository of the knowledge you have and share with us so generously, because otherwise I see adoption of these ideas being very slow, as few people have the native intelligence and education you have, or the wherewithal to figure out from these disparate threads, how to even begin experimenting, and I fear most will just say "fuck it" and wind up saving up money for commercial refractory products, or going with lower performing, but less technically demanding, DIY solutions

[Deleted]

True grog is a lot better.

The key for successfull powder chemistry is a large surface/volume ratio.
The smaller the particle size the higher the surface/volume ratio, that's all.

The particle size distribution may vary by manifacturer,
which usually provide tables with the particle size distribution of their products.

About 50% of the grog should be smaller than 0.06 mm with most of them smaller than 0.01mm.
At best all is below 0.06 mm.

One could sieve out smaller particles to make a binder or use something else.

A typical problem of grogs are the inability to bind higher amounts of water and the resulting segregation of the particles.
Some clay or another mineral able to bind high amounts of water and thicken the mixture can be added.

Also some quicklime can be used to shorten setting and thus prevent segregation.

See also:
Metakaolin, Metaclay from the Batch Box.
donkey32.proboards.com/thread/2449/metakaolin-metaclay-batch-box

I am an old and very ill man unable of much physical activity but with lots of time
and extremely curious by nature.
I am just trying to give the world what I can.

[esbjornaneer]

As I understand Costal he is proposing that we who are interested and able to help organise the material that you have already posted will do that to the best of our abilities and ask you questions until we think we have a grasp of it. Then ask you to approve our interpretations/understanding or help us improove it. Sort of what you and I did in my Launa thread.

Have I got that right Coastal?

[coastalrocketeer]

Jan 8, 2018 10:31:19 GMT -8 esbjornaneer said:

As I understand Costal he is proposing that we who are interested and able to help organise the material that you have already posted will do that to the best of our abilities and ask you questions until we think we have a grasp of it. Then ask you to approve our interpretations/understanding or help us improove it. Sort of what you and I did in my Launa thread.

Have I got that right Coastal?

Exactly, I want to collect all that Karl has already posted and sort out what we can, then clarify our understanding with Karl of all
aspects... terminology, wording, applicability of specific statements to all or specific subsets of ingredients or mix types...

Develop initial starting percentages of various types of ingredients and materials and in various applications and methods, organize it all as best we can on our own, create a glossary, and with Karl's help and clarification
create supplemental support and clarification sections covering aspects of terminology, chemistry, geology, and materials sourcing, selection, and processing that we or others may be unclear on.

I find that the more I read of what Karl says, the more I feel like I understand previous things he has stated elsewhere, but it's a crapshoot whether I can find what particuIar thing I was reminded of again.

I think a compendium of this sort could give the centralized resource of knowledge that potential geopolymer experimenters would be able and inspired to use to get started without the current learning and information gathering curve...

Hopefully WAY less basic and repetitive questions for Karl, from new folks, often based on common conventions and assumptions, and way MORE people, conducting and sharing successful experiments.

So far this has been limited to those interested and dedicated enough to "wade through it all" and try to make sense of things and come to a reasonable understanding from which to proceed with experimentation and development with our own locally available materials.

One such example of the misconceptions/assumptions is the notion that insulting value of materials is directly tied to their weight by volume, when actually the physical structure of a composite refractory can have as much or more effect.

Karl has taught us this is not the case, but most people assume intuitively that it is the sole route to refractory insulation, father than a single aspect of it. I certainly once did.

I would like to make it so that this collaboration of experimenters we have, can grow WAY beyond the current audience of those actually willing to do the work of finding the information and then hopefully making the correct interpretations, to be equipped to conduct the required experiments with each of our own locally available resources.

I want to clarify and create sets of knowledge and advice to make it as easy as possible for anyone to find and make use of their locally available Geopolymer resources.

[drooster]

Jan 8, 2018 7:57:31 GMT -8 @karl said:

...
Also some quicklime can be used to shorten setting and thus prevent segregation.

See also:
Metakaolin, Metaclay from the Batch Box...

Karl from your other Metaclay post I assume it is related to quicklime,
but this comment (above) is unclear.
Since the production technique of quicklime is the same as your description of making Metaclay, are they closely related in properties?
If so, why not explain that in your quoted post?

[Deleted]

Both metaclays and quicklime are dehydroxilated minerals and thus chemically very reactive.
In the chemical sense metaclays are salts.
Quicklime is an oxide of an earth alkali metal, which by hydration releases large amounts of heat.
The released heat makes quicklime much more reactive than hydrated lime.

[sksshel]

Karl and Coastal,  

I am willing to assist in the testing process.  I have been testing one of Karl's LTGS recipes and am ready to begin construction this Spring.  If the recipe I have documented is acceptable as a starting point, we simply need to define the parameters to be tested.  I'm ready to go but am waiting for warmer weather to begin.  

I've documented the process and recipe HERE.   I think the Double Shoe-box design will be a very solid test.  The 90-degree turn at the top of the Ram's Horns will maximize the temperature.  

We could possibly have several people each try a different recipe and compare notes. 

[drooster]

Feb 21, 2018 9:13:33 GMT -8 sksshel said:

... I think the Double Shoe-box design will be a very solid test. ... 

Can I suggest a strict PvdB 6" batchbox instead? Or a strict PvdB J-tube with all the trimmings?
It's just that the shoebox hasn't had a long time to become non-experimental ... from comments Peter has made over the months.
Choosing a physical design which has a lot of well-running installations would be better,

[esbjornaneer]

Having built a DSR and also being on the geopolymer trail I am inclined to agree with drooster . That is why I am in the process of building a mould for a 6" BBR. Unfortunately I will not be able to put any time into it for 2 months now as I will be on the road.

I have been outspoken about the beauty of the DSR and have now reported on a drawback of it HERE. There has been little public information/comments from Peter on the subject, that I have come across, in recent time until this post in the Permies forum.

More DSR builds are needed to take out of its experimental stage (and I may do another one myself after these months of travelling) but I am not as impressed with it as I was on paper. My first BBR I just followed instructions and it worked. The DSR did not work as a heat riser was needed (in the build linked above) though I had understood from posts that 'the DSR core did not need one, and the chimney used was only to get the exhaust above head height'. If you go for a DSR do allow possibility to add a heat riser above it. It will be great to see it working for you!

[sksshel]

Thanks for the feedback.  I do understand that the DSR is experimental.  Here's my current thinking:
- I like many things about the DSR over the BBR.  In particular, the ability to view the "Rams Horns" and the shorter stature (although I assumed there was an HR). 
- I have 2 plans drawn up in Sketchup, one for a BBR and one for a DSR.
- many of the components are similar, if not the same.  This includes the Firebox Floor, Firebox sides, and the Bell.  The Bell will most likely be a different height.  
- The Firebox top and back will be different.  
- I plan to build the Firebox with DSR components and prototype the top shoe-box with firebrick sides and an LTGS roof.  note: I have considered using sheet metal for the roof but am unsure how long it would last for testing.
- I assume many items will need to be adjusted and tested.  These include primary air, secondary air, port size, top shoe-box height, riser location (front to back), riser height, bell height, and total ISA
- I've already installed what I understand to be an "ideal" chimney.  It rises through my stairwell and exits straight up through the roof.  
- If all of that fails, my fallback plan will be to build the PVdB BBR.   Time and materials will be wasted, but I think it's worth the risk. 

I understand the current state of the DSR.  PVdB summed it up with: "It looks like this DSR can be a viable alternative to the earlier implementations using batchrocket technology although there's a lot of more experimenting to be done."

I am retired and this will be my top priority for the summer. 

I hope to accomplish all of that by November 2018.  8, possibly 9 months. 

Now, having said all of that, if you guys think I'm crazy and that there's little hope that I can accomplish that in the timeframe, I will listen.  I've also reached out to PVdB to see if I can assist him with his testing.  I'm hoping some more information will come from him in the timeframe also. 

[esbjornaneer]

I think you are great to go for it. My wishes for your success are as big as they can be!