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Post by coastalrocketeer on Jan 4, 2018 15:56:13 GMT -8
I mix the binder first and let it rest while preparing the other ingredients. The brower of my TV has a few problems. Thank you... |
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Post by coastalrocketeer on Jan 4, 2018 20:43:40 GMT -8
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2018 8:44:18 GMT -8
Which kind of gas is used in your torch ?
Burners using Bunsen technique produce pretty hot flames with propane gas 1,300-1,600 °C (2,400-2,900 °F, air).
With Butane above 1700°C/3092°F.
In any case much hotter than any flame in a wood burning stove.
The whitish yellow you have mentioned prior indicates a surface temperature of 1300°C/2372°F,
thus clearly exceeding the limits of the more common refractories.
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Post by coastalrocketeer on Jan 5, 2018 12:20:52 GMT -8
Which kind of gas is used in your torch ? Burners using Bunsen technique produce pretty hot flames with propane gas 1,300-1,600 °C (2,400-2,900 °F, air). With Butane above 1700°C/3092°F. In any case much hotter than any flame in a wood burning stove. The whitish yellow you have mentioned prior indicates a surface temperature of 1300°C/2372°F, thus clearly exceeding the limits of the more common refractories. This one is a propane torch... |
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Post by peterberg on Jan 5, 2018 12:40:33 GMT -8
The whitish yellow you have mentioned prior indicates a surface temperature of 1300°C/2372°F, thus clearly exceeding the limits of the more common refractories. Last year I used a 50 kg sample of a common refractory castable made by Gouda Refractories. This type is called Golite 135, maximum service temperature 1350ºC, density after completely drying 1400 kg/m³. It's an insulative refractory and could be cast without a vibrating table. The higher limit of certain modern refractories is 1600º C, so the above statement isn't correct. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2018 13:44:09 GMT -8
The whitish yellow you have mentioned prior indicates a surface temperature of 1300°C/2372°F, thus clearly exceeding the limits of the more common refractories. Last year I used a 50 kg sample of a common refractory castable made by Gouda Refractories. This type is called Golite 135, maximum service temperature 1350ºC, density after completely drying 1400 kg/m³. It's an insulative refractory and could be cast without a vibrating table. The higher limit of certain modern refractories is 1600º C, so the above statement isn't correct. The cheaper refractories are more commonly used and have typically a limit of 1200 C or even slightly below, therefore my statement is correct. You have advised this kind of refractory as more than sufficient in the past. |
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Post by peterberg on Jan 6, 2018 1:22:10 GMT -8
The cheaper refractories are more commonly used and have typically a limit of 1200 C or even slightly below, therefore my statement is correct. You have advised this kind of refractory as more than sufficient in the past. Golite 135 costs about 12% more as the common Curon 120 HS, that's true. That last one is very widely used by builders, diy as well as professionals. But Golite 135 is about 17% lighter so it is even cheaper volume-wise. I wrote Karl's statement wasn't correct based on the specified maximum service temperature. Nothing to do with what I said in the past, although I am still behind that statement. |
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Post by esbjornaneer on Jan 6, 2018 2:15:56 GMT -8
In here, I understand, Karl suggests mixing the water needed for the whole sample with the binder, then adding that to the dry aggregate to get a better distribution of the binder in the aggregate. |
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Post by coastalrocketeer on Jan 6, 2018 2:41:35 GMT -8
In here, I understand, Karl suggests mixing the water needed for the whole sample with the binder, then adding that to the dry aggregate to get a better distribution of the binder in the aggregate. That is exactly what I did with my latest experiment in progress, and what I will do with all mixes in the future... Thank you E :-) |
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Post by esbjornaneer on Jan 6, 2018 3:45:49 GMT -8
The 20 grams of cat litter made the 41-2/3 grams water into a very thick paste and I added that to the binder, mixed in thoroughly, then added my aggregate zeolite. 41-2/3 grams remaining coarse screened, and all 100 grams of the finer screened portion. My apologies about my last post. I must have misunderstood the quote above  . |
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Post by coastalrocketeer on Jan 6, 2018 14:26:19 GMT -8
The 20 grams of cat litter made the 41-2/3 grams water into a very thick paste and I added that to the binder, mixed in thoroughly, then added my aggregate zeolite. 41-2/3 grams remaining coarse screened, and all 100 grams of the finer screened portion. My apologies about my last post. I must have misunderstood the quote above 😐 . No... That was the last experiment ^^^ , which you were correct about. The latest one I am just pulling out of the oven today, and have not posted a report about yet... Hopefully this evening. And it just happened that I had integrated that process advice from Karl, in mixing of all the water needed, with the binder, before adding my aggregate material, which in this case was pure bentonite clay, which I obtained yesterday. |
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Post by firewatcher on Jan 6, 2018 14:38:07 GMT -8
My apologies about my last post. I must have misunderstood the quote above 😐 . No... That was the last experiment ^^^ , which you were correct about. The latest one I am just pulling out of the oven today, and have not posted a report about yet... Hopefully this evening. And it just happened that I had integrated that process advice from Karl, in mixing of all the water needed, with the binder, before adding my aggregate material, which in this case was pure bentonite clay, which I obtained yesterday. Maybe I'm not understanding correctly, but in order to highly concentrate the NaOH when creating the binder, I'm not clear on why one would want to add total water amount for the final mix to the binder portion. Am I just confusing the above statements? |
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Post by coastalrocketeer on Jan 6, 2018 20:16:25 GMT -8
No... That was the last experiment ^^^ , which you were correct about. The latest one I am just pulling out of the oven today, and have not posted a report about yet... Hopefully this evening. And it just happened that I had integrated that process advice from Karl, in mixing of all the water needed, with the binder, before adding my aggregate material, which in this case was pure bentonite clay, which I obtained yesterday. Maybe I'm not understanding correctly, but in order to highly concentrate the NaOH when creating the binder, I'm not clear on why one would want to add total water amount for the final mix to the binder portion. Am I just confusing the above statements? The dissolution happens while the mix is concentrated, the binder is allowed to rest for some hours to increase reactions during the dissolution phase, and then the water needed to make the additional aggregate mold-able is added to the binder, so that any moisture absorbed into the aggregate is evenly infused with reactive binder, rather than aggregate being moistened with "binder free" water... Any that "sucks into" the aggregate is not easily replaced/displaced with binder solution after the fact during mixing and curing, and so this decreases surface "connection" of aggregate to the surrounding binder at each "wet, but with water, and not binder solution" particle surface in the aggregate... At least that is my assumption/understanding... But I'm not sure. Karl may correct me, or confirm, after he has a chance to read this. (Edited to correct mistaken wording) |
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Post by coastalrocketeer on Jan 7, 2018 1:57:46 GMT -8
My next experiment was a flop in the main focus of the attempt, but what I did with the bits of leftover materials worked MUCH better. My idea was to saturate mineral wool with a mayonnaise thickness combination of bentonite clay aggregate, and zeolite binder. First I mixed 200 grams of the pure bentonite clay kitty litter I'd found with water, using (perhaps abusing?) a kitchen mixer... I added water 100 grams at a time, until I had reached a consistency I liked, somewhere between mayonnaise and peanut butter. This required 1000 grams of water for 200g of bentonite clay. Interestingly, the test did not directly apply when mixing with binder infused water during actual geopolymer attempt. This clay mix was just to guage the amount of water a given amount of clay could suck up for my desired consistency range. I mixed 200 grams of zeolite with 10 grams of lye, mixed in about 1/3 of 100 grams of water, til all was well saturated and mixed, let it rest for a few minutes, and then added the other 2/3 of the 100 grams, and let it rest some hours... S"Some hours" turned out to be overnight, and til the next evening it rested, as I was doing this late at night. (Is this TOO long to let it rest Karl?) The next afternoon I took my zeolite binder and added 500 more grams of water to it, which made it a "dirty water" liquid with all remaining undissolved zeolite grains sedimentating to the bottom. I was not worried for the bentonite should re-suspend them all as "aggregate" I began adding bentonite, starting with 100g to match the 500g added water. Mixed it in, and it was still a thin gravy like liquid. I wound up getting to 225 grams of bentonite to the total 600 grams water in the mix, before the combined liquid got to a mayonnaise like consistency. My main attempt that used 95% of the mix was to saturate a roughly 1" thick piece of mineral wool blanket with the mix in an oven bag and cure it in the oven at 180F overnight. That was a disaster, with the mineral wool sucking all of the moisture out of the clay zeolite mix such that the blanket never got thoroughly saturated and the material that coated the outsides just cracked and crazed as the bentonite dried and shrunk, and the blanket never developed any kind of rigidity. This is that disaster... My technique of saturating the blanket was obviously insufficient/faulty, and a more liquid binder may have been necessary to really make it work.      As you can see this did not work well as I implemented it there... |
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Post by coastalrocketeer on Jan 7, 2018 3:54:34 GMT -8
However... Seeming success with the scraps!
The 10-15% or so remaining leftover binder/aggregate mix was sitting in the cup begging me to do something with it... So I took scissors and chopped a handful of mineral wool into pea to grape size pieces, and then just stirred them into the remaining mix until mostly saturated, but not totally broken down... And squeezed them in a ball and pressed that into a rough circle about 1/2" thick, on a piece of plastic wrap on a pie tin and dried it for a few hours at 170F in the oven...
Working with it was something between working with paper mache, and modeling clay. It held it's shape well, and dried in the oven uncovered, similarly well.
There was no cracking in this sample and it seems to be more heat resistant (less bubbling at surface as it glassifies under the blow torch) and perhaps a bit less insulative than the samples of all zeolite binder and aggregate mix I did previously at the same thickness, but requires WAY less solids and material weight for the same volume of finished product.
The puck I made is roughly 10 cm square and .75 to 1 cm thick. It weighs 58 grams, of which I would guess 6 grams is rock wool, and 45 grams is zeolite clay "geopolymer" (assuming this actually made a geopolymer) so it's about 0.6 grams/cc
It seems to be about as strong as my zeolite mixes, and less prone to cracking. Previous mixes were moderately strong but not hard to break with ones hands at 1cm thick... This is similarly rigid but MUCH lighter.
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