SweetPDZ Zeolite geopolymer first try... Promising

[Deleted]

If lye and zeolite have properly reacted the binder should be able to take it's own mass in water and still remain rather thick.

KMI zeolite Nevada: Very high purity 50 lb 100 mesh $29.99.
Mine & mills are located in southern California.
shop.kmizeolite.com/shop/product/freeflow-feed-additive-246?category=37

Shipping will likely be prohibitive for most of you.

But remember LTGS works with any kind of clay, no expensive zeolite required.
There are fire clays for $10 or less per bag.

The insulation will not be as extreme as with zeolite, but all will be able to compete and very likely beat insulating firebricks or fiber boards.
For higher insulation one may experiment with small amounts of bentonite in the mixture.

[coastalrocketeer]

Jan 2, 2018 7:36:18 GMT -8 @karl said:

If lye and zeolite have properly reacted the binder should be able to take it's own mass in water and still remain rather thick.

But remember LTGS works with any kind of clay, no expensive zeolite required.
There are fire clays for $10 or less per bag.

The insulation will not be as extreme as with zeolite, but all will be able to compete and very likely beat insulating firebricks or fiber boards.
For higher insulation one may experiment with small amounts of bentonite in the mixture.

Thank you Karl...

That first bit about water amount that the binder can take is quite helpful... I was suprised how the water I added to my "warm caramel" consistency paste changed it to a not-sticky cake frosting consistency. It was not at all what I was expecting and made me immediately wonder if I'd destroyed the batch.

Any advice on achieving more complete dissolution of the binder zeolite?

Stirring over hot water, with 13.8 grams NaOH to 41-2/3 grams SweetPDZ (coarser particles) was not sufficient with the 10 grams of water I used.

Would adding the water a gram at a time and mixing it in as thoroughly as possible for a number of minutes before adding another help? I was also thinking to heat the water to near boiling before each addition.

I am going to try to get some of the McNamee Kaolin and a few other things to experiment with as well, if ever again I am in one of the cities the pottery supplier nearest me is in, but until then, am continuing to experiment with zeolite, NaOH, h2O, and paper fibers and/or rock-wool.

Unfortunately they are an hour north and an hour south of the city my nephews, who we visit a few times a year are in, and neither is "on the way" from where we live.

Also, the melting at the surface being due to high amounts of lye, is this meaning I have too much un-reacted lye left in my binder at the time I am adding the aggregate, or just that the amount of lye required to do a zeolite only mix is going to make this surface melting a basic property of any all zeolite mix I do?

Once again thank you for your time and effort in expanding my very limited understanding as I attempt to learn to swim...

[Deleted]

You may try to ad a bit more water.
Maybe not all the lye has reacted due to a bit of lacking water.
Natural zeolites may contain some not dissolfable minerals.

The samples I have made from granular zeolite with NaOH do not melt
if heated to a yellow orange glow which indicates about 1100 degree Celsius.

Try to make a sample with your local clay soil as aggregate.

[coastalrocketeer]

Jan 2, 2018 13:45:57 GMT -8 @karl said:

You may try to ad a bit more water.
Maybe not all the lye has reacted due to a bit of lacking water.

I will try working my way up to more water and see if it improves dissolution... I was not wanting to add too much too early and make the lye too weak to do it's dance with the minerals in the zeolite.

Natural zeolites may contain some not dissolfable minerals.

That may well be what is remaining "grainy" in my binder

The samples I have made from granular zeolite with NaOH do not melt
if heated to a yellow orange glow which indicates about 1100 degree Celsius.

My sample was definitely glowing bright yellow in the areas where the bubbling occurs. Only the surfaces of the expanding bubbles exposed to the torch got to that whitish yellow hot. And after cooling, the melted area is only 1/32 to 1/16" thick and the zeolite behind retains it's structure unscathed even though some layer of it gets to glowing red-orange to yellow-orange

Try to make a sample with your local clay soil as aggregate.

I will have to find a local clay deposit and see what I can come up with. I know there is a grey volcanic clay layer but the only place I know to easily access it without an excavator is on the cliffs at the beach where it is illegal for me to take. Other areas it is below 10 feet of forest duff.

Thank you! Will report my next experiments as I have time to conduct them in the next few days.

[esbjornaneer]

Thank you for great further reports! Do you do the 24hr soak test on your samples or just the torch test?

[coastalrocketeer]

Jan 2, 2018 23:49:19 GMT -8 esbjornaneer said:

Thank you for great further reports! Do you do the 24hr soak test on your samples or just the torch test?

I have not done any 24 hour soak tests, but I have pieces of both I can try that with... I'll go put them in a bowl of water right now

[coastalrocketeer]

Jan 2, 2018 23:49:19 GMT -8 esbjornaneer said:

Thank you for great further reports! Do you do the 24hr soak test on your samples or just the torch test?

Well I fell asleep in the recliner before starting the soak test, so it was 10am yesterday when I started soaking two samples of the two I have flame tested so far.

Both retained their shapes and original level of strength before soaking. So I guess I'm actually making geopolymers! Yay!

The newer sample had sharp edges that stayed sharp and hard:




The older one that had been flame treated, and had WAY too much bathroom tissue cellulose in it as opposed to Karl's reccommended amounts is still softer than the sample above, and the surface had been glassified, so checked the center portion with my finger nail and it seems about as strong as it originally was.

youtu.be/X9KorsZEyBQ

[esbjornaneer]

I celebrate you! I have not got there with my local clay so far. But got some other clay from a potter to try when I have can ib a few day's time.

[coastalrocketeer]

So I did another batch and test puck last night.

I took my 41-2/3 grams of coarse zeolite and ground it in my pestel and mortar (slow process as I can only effectively grind 1/2gram to 1 gram at a time) to as fine a powder as I could get it to without wearing out my arm.

Added 13.8 grams of lye and stirred in 41-2/3 grams boiling hot h20 bit by bit. It boiled as it reacted with the lye and so I'm sure I lost some portion of that before it was all mixed in. Made a sticky paste. Stirred it over the double boiler for about an hour, and found I'd once again let it get a little too hard to easily add more water. Some thickening was likely from loss of water as steam over that hour on the double boiler.

I added another equal mass of water (41-2/3 grams) and stirred for a LONG time to get the semi hardened paste evenly mixed with the water. So I need to remember to add more water in bits as it thickens, because once it gets to the "hard taffy" stage it is a pain to mix more water in evenly... But I managed to, by letting the taffy stick to the knife I was stirring it with and then rubbing that knife and another together in the paste to dissolve the "taffy". Took about 1/2 hour to get the last teaspoon of it to dissolve into the paste. And it remained a nice thick paste even with all that water added.

Once the paste was even consistency again, I added 41-2/3 grams of water mixed with 20 grams of "fresh step" clumping cat litter that I'd powdered in the pestel and mortar, which I believe contains some portion of bentonite clay, but definitely seems to contain other harder stuff... And scented stuff of some sort. So a major unknown. I will try to find a pure bentonite clumping cat litter for my next experiment with adding bentonite, as this stuff stinks and is hard to powder.

The 20 grams of cat litter made the 41-2/3 grams water into a very thick paste and I added that to the binder, mixed in thoroughly, then added my aggregate zeolite. 41-2/3 grams remaining coarse screened, and all 100 grams of the finer screened portion.

Then mixed in 5 grams of rockwool, and 0.5 grams of bathroom tissue.

Consistency overall was very similar to my previous mix...

This time I made a 6"x6" square mold and placed it on a flat baking sheet with plastic wrap over it and pressed the material down with more plastic wrap over it, using a 5-15/16" square scrap of plywood. The sample is about 1/2cm thick.

Got a nicer, more even thickness, and more square result with that than with plastic tubs, and it maintained it's shape well in the oven.

Cured it overnight with plastic wrap still covering top and bottom at 180F. Was still moist, but very much hardened this morning so I took it out of the mold and put it back in the oven on the baking sheet at 190F for an hour or so to drive out the rest of the moisture, and now am giving it 1/2 to 1 hour at 400F.

Will torch test later and do the water immersion test as well.

[coastalrocketeer]

Waiting an hour for it to cure at 400F is testing my patience! Lol!

[Deleted]

Thanks for sharing.

I need only one or two minutes to make 100g - 150g of binder from granular zeolite,
but I make chemical experiments since more than 50 years and got experience
with different kinds of geopolymer since many years as well.

[coastalrocketeer]

Jan 4, 2018 13:01:03 GMT -8 @karl said:

Thanks for sharing.

I need only one or two minutes to make 100g - 150g of binder from granular zeolite,
but I make chemical experiments since more than 50 years and got experience
with different kinds of geopolymer since many years as well.

Wheras I have absolutely no idea what I am doing chemically or otherwise, what is "normal", or what to expect... :-)

So you are saying the chemical dissolution is occurring in just a couple of minutes?

I am using 13.8 grams of lye with 41-2/3 grams zeolite and don't know how to tell when it is "ready" so have been looking for changes in "grittiness" and changes in thickness of the binder that seem to be out of proportion to any loss of water due to evaporation.

I chose this 3:1 amount of zeolite to lye because it gave me a little more than the minimum lye you said was necessary (7%) with the remaining 141-2/3 grams of zeolite aggregate for an all zeolite, for binder and aggregate, mix.

I will have to try my next batch with no heating and just a short mixing time as you describe. Certainly would be easier!

Am also going to try with actual pure bentonite clay added.

Is there a better way to use/add it to the mix than how I did it?

Also will be trying local clay soil as aggregate once I find a good source of something that I will be able to get the same material for additional experiments and building multiple stove cores, assuming successful experiments occur.

[coastalrocketeer]

Planning to try the bentonite mixed with water and added to the binder before addition of remaining zeolite aggregate as before, unless you tell me different.

[coastalrocketeer]

Clay soil I will add as aggregate, and probably will try various ratios of this to zeolite aggregate as well.

Will try both with and without similar 2.5 to 10% by weight range additions of bentonite, in a batch with 1/3 to 1/4 zeolite binder to aggregate ratio, unless you advise that there is likely to be no benefit to trying with the bentonite.

[Deleted]

Jan 4, 2018 13:17:46 GMT -8 coastalrocketeer said:

I mix the binder first and let it rest while preparing the other ingredients.

The brower of my TV has a few problems.