|
Post by drooster on Oct 11, 2017 12:39:03 GMT -8
... This allergic reaction has been awful. My left eye is still swollen shut and my face and scalp are blistered and scabbed I've never been allergic to anything in my life! I had to stop work altogether until I can see again... Could you have handled the ceramic fibre without gloves and goggles and possibly got some dust in your eye and in your skin? I agree with Orange as this being the likeliest cause, although all kinds of cement dust can have similar effects too. A foolish friend of mine poured cement into his polystyrene house thing while wearing shorts and ended up in the hospital.
|
|
|
Post by n8ivetxn on Oct 11, 2017 16:15:29 GMT -8
Looks good! Do you know for how long the stove burned? Did you happen to take temperature measurements anywhere on the stove? I'm really curious how well the cinder block primary bell works and holds up. Are you going to cover the lower (half-barrel) bell with cob? LOL, don't lie! It looks awful ! - I'm not sure, but I think it's burning hot and fast. I realize that doesn't tell you anything specific. I've ran it 3x now, but I haven't been able to sit with it through the whole process. Tonight I'll be able to spend some time watching and timing it. I think it might be burning a whole box of wood in about an hour, after it's warmed up. This is very well-seasoned/aged wood I'm using. When I first start it, it smokes out the chimney quite a bit, but after it warms up (about 30-45 minutes) the smoke becomes just vapors and there's a roaring fire in the box. I haven't taken any temps yet, I would really like to know... It seems strange to me, but the fire brick get hotter than the concrete blocks. I'm really amazed at how little heat escapes from the top - I was scared it was too close to the polycarbonate and the rafter - but it isn't! They don't get warm at all. I will keep y'all posted on how long the cinder blocks hold up. I don't expect a lot from it, but maybe it'll buy some time for me to collect better materials.... My neighbor works at a paper/fiber mill and he came over to see the heater, he said there's a whole pile of firebrick at his job site - for free!!! I asked him to grab what he could for me and I'd pay him for them. I will definitely cob the half-barrels, it might be a few days before I get to it.
|
|
|
Post by n8ivetxn on Oct 11, 2017 16:20:27 GMT -8
... This allergic reaction has been awful. My left eye is still swollen shut and my face and scalp are blistered and scabbed I've never been allergic to anything in my life! I had to stop work altogether until I can see again... Could you have handled the ceramic fibre without gloves and goggles and possibly got some dust in your eye and in your skin? I agree with Orange as this being the likeliest cause, although all kinds of cement dust can have similar effects too. A foolish friend of mine poured cement into his polystyrene house thing while wearing shorts and ended up in the hospital. Wow - well, I did have gloves on all the time, but no goggles. I had no idea the stuff was so potent. My head blistered up from front to the back of my hairline. My scalp is still so sore I can hardly brush my hair! I've regained my vision and it's almost stopped seeping (still can't drive though!). The blisters are healing up. - Next time I'll use a respirator. A friend in construction told me that a lot of guys he works with cannot handle refractory materials. Craziness!
|
|
|
Post by matthewwalker on Oct 11, 2017 16:25:43 GMT -8
About zero chance it was the ceramic fiber in my experience. Drooster, Orange, have you handled ceramic fiber and had a bad reaction? It was almost certainly what you used for mortar. You can use sand and clay and avoid that next time.
|
|
|
Post by keithturtle on Oct 11, 2017 18:55:24 GMT -8
The light bulbs are coming on! I think once I build the test model and see how the pieces fit, I'll understand a little better how it all works together. Build it and it will teach you. Take notes on everything, then read them. Don't worry about failures, they teach you more than successes. Learn from the mistakes of others, for you'll never live long enough to make them all yourself. Your determination is admirable. Thank you for sharing your experiences. Thank you for being teachable. Safety is not optional Turtle
|
|
|
Post by Vortex on Oct 12, 2017 3:13:30 GMT -8
All those symptoms are listed as possible reactions in the safety data sheet: www.ceramicfiber.net/MSDSCeraTex.pdfIt's also listed as a possible cancer risk by inhalation, so please be safe.
|
|
|
Post by pinhead on Oct 12, 2017 4:25:42 GMT -8
Looks good! Do you know for how long the stove burned? Did you happen to take temperature measurements anywhere on the stove? I'm really curious how well the cinder block primary bell works and holds up. Are you going to cover the lower (half-barrel) bell with cob? LOL, don't lie! It looks awful ! - I'm not sure, but I think it's burning hot and fast. I realize that doesn't tell you anything specific. I've ran it 3x now, but I haven't been able to sit with it through the whole process. Tonight I'll be able to spend some time watching and timing it. I think it might be burning a whole box of wood in about an hour, after it's warmed up. This is very well-seasoned/aged wood I'm using. When I first start it, it smokes out the chimney quite a bit, but after it warms up (about 30-45 minutes) the smoke becomes just vapors and there's a roaring fire in the box. I haven't taken any temps yet, I would really like to know... It seems strange to me, but the fire brick get hotter than the concrete blocks. I'm really amazed at how little heat escapes from the top - I was scared it was too close to the polycarbonate and the rafter - but it isn't! They don't get warm at all. I will keep y'all posted on how long the cinder blocks hold up. I don't expect a lot from it, but maybe it'll buy some time for me to collect better materials.... My neighbor works at a paper/fiber mill and he came over to see the heater, he said there's a whole pile of firebrick at his job site - for free!!! I asked him to grab what he could for me and I'd pay him for them. I will definitely cob the half-barrels, it might be a few days before I get to it. That seems like an abnormally long warm-up time. What method are you using to start the fire? In my experience, the best way to get the fire started quickly (and stop smoking) is to start with a hand-full of small sticks/twigs at the base of the throat (not protruding into the throat, though). In my stove, I generally start with sticks about the size of my fingers and about 8 to 10 inches long. Grab the sticks in a "bundle" and simply lay them in front of the throat. I'm super impatient so I then use lighter fluid to light the pile of sticks - such as would be used to light a charcoal bbq grill - and let the sticks burn all the way down to coals. Once those sticks are no longer smoking but still flaming, I add another hand-full of sticks on top of them, then load the stove up to the brim with your normal seasoned wood. This should get the stove up and running in far less than 10 minutes. In a warm, dry stove the fire should be rocketing in less than 5 minutes. EDIT: You have to be careful, though, using the lighter fluid in a warm stove; if the core is warm enough it can/will evaporate the fluid and send it up into the heat riser and literally "blow its top" when you light it.
|
|
|
Post by matthewwalker on Oct 12, 2017 6:34:55 GMT -8
All those symptoms are listed as possible reactions in the safety data sheet: www.ceramicfiber.net/MSDSCeraTex.pdfIt's also listed as a possible cancer risk by inhalation, so please be safe. While it's possible she has a bad reaction to the dry, inert fiber, it's much more likely it's a reaction to mixing and applying a whole bag of caustic refractory(lye) over a period of hours, touching face and pushing hair out of the way, don't you think? The dangers of the ceramic fiber are the same as dust,dry fiberglass fibers, or any small particulate. I repeat, it's highly unlikely in my opinion this is the cause of a reaction like this. I've seen it handled casually by dozens and dozens of people, without any reaction. Let's share our experiences rather than speculation people. There has been a whole lot of bad advice on the boards lately from people who read a lot but haven't built anything,or are on their first try. Not referring to you Vortex, just generally, but this line of speculation is a great example.
|
|
|
Post by Dan (Upstate NY, USA) on Oct 12, 2017 15:47:30 GMT -8
The reaction seems to be one of being exposed to caustic. Was a masonry tender at 15 to 19 years old. Seen many new tenders "blow-up" due to caustic in normal portland cement and never come back... Most times the reaction was on arms and hands, sometimes legs if it was the summer and they were wearing shorts... never the face...
|
|
|
Post by matthewwalker on Oct 12, 2017 17:08:23 GMT -8
Thank you Wolf, that is my point. Caustic mortars and cements often cause that reaction, in many people. I've never seen that with dry fiber.
Now, the important part.... Come on Team! I didn't mean to get down on everyone this morning, but seriously, we are generally a nice, quiet, encouraging bunch. I know when I see the bad intel from the new posters to the newer posters, I cringe, but I don't usually bother to post a correction, mostly because I'm not that great at doing it diplomatically and don't want to come down on enthusiastic folks. That said, we gotta do better so we can avoid more of this in the future for new builders like Gina.
This thread is a great example. Most of us are here because we want cleaner, better systems for us and our neighbors. I feel bad for not speaking up early. When we see folks about to buy refractory mortar to set brick, let's suggest clay/sand and avoid the caustic reaction. I also believe it is the superior material in every respect, it's just a bonus it's inert. This is why I bothered to speak up about this speculation regarding the origin of the rash. This thread jumped on the fiber and ran with it, and the next builder would have doubled down on the mortar and skipped the fiber. There's really no place for refractory mortar in my opinion. This is the message we should be taking away from Gina's experience, again, in my opinion.
I was thinking about you all today, and this board. I'll try to do better at sharing my experience when I see a thread like this. This board has for the most part been a great source of quality information and dialog, and apparently that matters to me. Sorry for the rant!
|
|
|
Post by pinhead on Oct 13, 2017 6:42:44 GMT -8
Thank you Wolf, that is my point. Caustic mortars and cements often cause that reaction, in many people. I've never seen that with dry fiber. Now, the important part.... Come on Team! I didn't mean to get down on everyone this morning, but seriously, we are generally a nice, quiet, encouraging bunch. I know when I see the bad intel from the new posters to the newer posters, I cringe, but I don't usually bother to post a correction, mostly because I'm not that great at doing it diplomatically and don't want to come down on enthusiastic folks. That said, we gotta do better so we can avoid more of this in the future for new builders like Gina. This thread is a great example. Most of us are here because we want cleaner, better systems for us and our neighbors. I feel bad for not speaking up early. When we see folks about to buy refractory mortar to set brick, let's suggest clay/sand and avoid the caustic reaction. I also believe it is the superior material in every respect, it's just a bonus it's inert. This is why I bothered to speak up about this speculation regarding the origin of the rash. This thread jumped on the fiber and ran with it, and the next builder would have doubled down on the mortar and skipped the fiber. There's really no place for refractory mortar in my opinion. This is the message we should be taking away from Gina's experience, again, in my opinion. I was thinking about you all today, and this board. I'll try to do better at sharing my experience when I see a thread like this. This board has for the most part been a great source of quality information and dialog, and apparently that matters to me. Sorry for the rant! I agree, 100%. I've never worked with any refractory materials (other than dry CF) so I was unaware of its caustic nature. I did notice, though, that my arms were itchy after working with the ceramic - and assumed other people could/would have a stronger reaction to it than me, much like everything else (I'm not allergic to anything that I've found so far in my life). Since I couldn't definitively opine either way, I kept my mouth (fingers?) shut. Better for everyone to think you a fool than to open your mouth and erase all doubt and all that. The solid information provided by Peter, Matt, Vortex, Wolf, karl, et al, is what keeps this forum mostly in-line and accurate, IMHO, unlike a bigger forum which shall remain nameless. I've shied away from commenting on many "noob" threads because it can be overwhelming to correct so many utter falsehoods that come from other (again, nameless) forums and Youtube. Metal J-tubes, steel risers, etc. I've been a forum groupie for literally decades now, and I've seen the forum growth cycle quite a few times. A forum starts with a few really knowledgeable users/admins which attracts some of the more dedicated "searchers" who are likely to be a little ahead of the curve compared to the general population. The larger, more knowledgeable core user base produces a lot of high-quality work/posts, up to the point of simplifying the entire process. Once this point is met, a groundswell of less advanced experiments are attracted to the forum. I'm a computer nerd so I can remember when overclock.net went through this cycle in the mid 2000s. Then blazingpc.com was started as a smaller, more dedicated and more technical alternative - creating fierce competition between the forums, with overclock.net eventually squishing the smaller blazingpc.com by shear numbers. The original admins/mods left and all that was left was a user base of noobs that couldn't produce many high quality accurate threads so the forum eventually died. As long as the "supermods," as I like to call them, stay around, the forum can continue to be successful in helping moving the noobs into the more advanced user group. That's what we're here for, right? I'll try to do a little better in posting in some of the new users' threads as well, Matt. I'm a huge proponent of the free spread of information. I go so far as believing that "intellectual property" is simply a concoction of the State to protect its' donors but that's a different subject! Sorry for derailing your thread n8ivetxn! And I wasn't trying to be flattering when when I said your stove looks good! I'm confident that a tweak here and there will get that stove working like a champ!
|
|
|
Post by Orange on Oct 13, 2017 8:15:22 GMT -8
hey Matt, this is a low-post frequency forum so any on topic info is useful. I said it might be wool although I never had problem with wool or cement or any other chemical. I'm going to use only clay+sand 1:2 for my ceramic board box.
|
|
|
Post by n8ivetxn on Oct 14, 2017 21:26:47 GMT -8
LOL, don't lie! It looks awful ! - I'm not sure, but I think it's burning hot and fast. I realize that doesn't tell you anything specific. I've ran it 3x now, but I haven't been able to sit with it through the whole process. Tonight I'll be able to spend some time watching and timing it. I think it might be burning a whole box of wood in about an hour, after it's warmed up. This is very well-seasoned/aged wood I'm using. When I first start it, it smokes out the chimney quite a bit, but after it warms up (about 30-45 minutes) the smoke becomes just vapors and there's a roaring fire in the box. I haven't taken any temps yet, I would really like to know... It seems strange to me, but the fire brick get hotter than the concrete blocks. I'm really amazed at how little heat escapes from the top - I was scared it was too close to the polycarbonate and the rafter - but it isn't! They don't get warm at all. I will keep y'all posted on how long the cinder blocks hold up. I don't expect a lot from it, but maybe it'll buy some time for me to collect better materials.... My neighbor works at a paper/fiber mill and he came over to see the heater, he said there's a whole pile of firebrick at his job site - for free!!! I asked him to grab what he could for me and I'd pay him for them. I will definitely cob the half-barrels, it might be a few days before I get to it. That seems like an abnormally long warm-up time. What method are you using to start the fire? In my experience, the best way to get the fire started quickly (and stop smoking) is to start with a hand-full of small sticks/twigs at the base of the throat (not protruding into the throat, though). In my stove, I generally start with sticks about the size of my fingers and about 8 to 10 inches long. Grab the sticks in a "bundle" and simply lay them in front of the throat. I'm super impatient so I then use lighter fluid to light the pile of sticks - such as would be used to light a charcoal bbq grill - and let the sticks burn all the way down to coals. Once those sticks are no longer smoking but still flaming, I add another hand-full of sticks on top of them, then load the stove up to the brim with your normal seasoned wood. This should get the stove up and running in far less than 10 minutes. In a warm, dry stove the fire should be rocketing in less than 5 minutes. EDIT: You have to be careful, though, using the lighter fluid in a warm stove; if the core is warm enough it can/will evaporate the fluid and send it up into the heat riser and literally "blow its top" when you light it. My process: take several sheets of newspaper and make twist-ropes out of them. Lay them in the back, near the throat. put several small pieces of dry, pine or fir on top, strike and throw in one of those fire-lighter matches (long burning). It starts right up. After it catches good, I add the fire wood and close the door. I'm probably not being very clear, since this is my first stove - it does start rocketing, within just a few minutes of start up, but it takes a little longer to get the smoke in the chimney to clear up some. Actually, I think it's burning dirtier than I first thought. Today I saw something that looks like dark molasses that leaked from the chimney joints. Maybe the stove isn't burning quite as good as it should. I also think I need a better "door." That piece of left over stove pipe isn't going to last long! And, it's a little too short, I think. I need more control over the air going in the front. I got a bale of straw today and a load of nice soil to start some cob. Hopefully tomorrow I can get that started.
|
|
|
Post by n8ivetxn on Oct 14, 2017 21:36:20 GMT -8
That stove is quite a beast! It can easily keep the temps about 20-30 degrees higher than the outside. This morning at 0730 it was 28F outside, but the greenhouse was a nice 55F inside - and the last load of wood I put in was at 0130. (I couldn't sleep, had to go check on it!!) The cobbed barrel bench will help so much! It's really been a fun project. I'm glad I did it. I'm actually anxious to do it again! LOL.... I'll post a few more pics when I get some cob going...
|
|
|
Post by n8ivetxn on Dec 24, 2017 2:22:48 GMT -8
Update on greenhouse build:
This has been an awesome experience. Overall, I'm pleased with the batch box, even though it wasn't built to specs. My 6" system can keep my greenhouse at about 60F with outside temps being 25F - that exceeds my expectations! For fuel I started using the North Idaho Energy Logs when I have to be away from home for a while, otherwise, I use the old pile of cut wood out back.
Biggest issues: - A few leaks, I've had to mortar over a few leaks, but I don't know if it's due to mortar cracking or the cinder blocks falling to pieces on the inside. It hasn't been too bad, just frustrating, plugging holes. Currently it's doing really well. - We removed and rebuilt the top 8" of the bell. It just wasn't sitting right and I couldn't stop it from leaking smoke. So we took it off and cast a level seating area for the top to rest on, and now it works great. - The chimney is making a mess on the outside of my polycarb sheeting. The exhaust isn't as clean as I'd hoped. Probably too many air leaks, leading to inefficient burning of fuel or just not getting up to temp? We had to get out a ladder and a bucket of soapy water to scrub it off. I'm surprised it came off. It'll be back.
Future plans: - As soon as weather permits (late April?), I'll tear it all out and start over. This time, I'll be able to buy the fire brick I need to build an 8" system. I'm taking out the living wall on the far end and I'll run my bench about 36" longer, to just over 8' long.
I'll have to get a tyvek suit and hood (I'm still having some skin irritation from the reaction). I discovered that I reacted to the Chromium in the mortar, not the ceramic fiber.
Happy Holidays!
~ Rita
|
|