rural
New Member
Posts: 38
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Post by rural on Jun 6, 2015 6:58:40 GMT -8
Like most building projects, there seems to be more to building rocket stoves and masonry wood stoves than is covered in the books and websites. I struggle with the basic techniques, like the right mix for cob or even basic brick-laying. There are details to these techniques that I haven't picked up yet.
I'm just wondering how folk here got to the point where they were comfortable with the basic skills used in building stoves. Obviously, being in the presence of others with experience would save a lot of time. My preference has always been to go it alone, but that is changing. I'm considering attending the MHA's workshop and/or the general meeting. But because of the distances involved, these involve a fairly large investment of time and money for myself. I've also learned that one can learn some of the basic skills by simply offering to help a tradesperson for a few hours. Just being able to watch a tradesperson work can make a lot of the details click into place. And a tradesperson that likes to gab about their work, well that's like striking gold.
Hopefully, some of the future video projects (ie. the latest Permies rocket-stove DVD project) will do a good job of covering the basics, but I have my doubts.
So for the time-being, I'm just going to continue fiddling, but I'm very interested in any short-cuts to proficiency with the basics have worked with others.
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Post by patamos on Jun 6, 2015 9:33:43 GMT -8
Ya that is a good point
I started with other natural building methods and got in to stove building from there. Learning a bit from an old timer here and there helps a lot.
Cob and site-made mortars can be intimidating at first, but after a while it all makes sense. You start to get a feel for ingredients and ratios.
Donkey has drafted up some good notes on mixes. And from there i'd suggest making test bricks of a standard size (2.5" x 4.5" x 9") and place them on a grill over top of a fire to see how they behave. The ones that hold up can be used for intended purposes. The ones that degenerate can be downgraded for filling/shaping purposes, or even crushed up to be remixed.
I have not attended any big workshops or gatherings (no spare time or money while raising a family), but i have facilitated a few local ones. Seems to me the people who get the most out of it are those who are also trying to figure things out by themselves anyway...
my two bits
pat
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Post by Daryl on Jun 6, 2015 9:37:05 GMT -8
Rural, I don't know where you are but keep an eye out for facebook pages, meetup.com groups, or websites of local permaculture groups. There are free or almost free workshops popping up in my region all the time. The quality is going to vary but if you stick around here long enough, then you will be able to tell if the workshop is worth it.
Search for workshops on building standard outdoor pizza ovens.
The hardest thing for me to find are courses on basic masonry training. I have found a couple free classes for masonry builds down in the DC area but it is way too far.
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rural
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Posts: 38
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Post by rural on Jun 6, 2015 14:01:21 GMT -8
Thanks Pat and Daryl. I think the take away is to keep struggling, experience will produce fruit even if I'm all on my own. Eventually, I'll make connections with like-minded folk, some of whom will have learned their own lessons on the way and be willing to pass them on.
I'd actually already hunted for workshops from local permaculture groups, but in the wrong urban center. It turns out that there is a much more active permaculture group just a stone's throw away. I'll keep an eye on their calendar for workshops that interest me.
There's always formal education too. I keep looking over the apprenticeship program for masons. It seems really involved (a three year process) and much of the material is well outside my interest area as it is based in conventional building. The first step is to get a job doing masonry work with a certified mason. That alone would probably be very enlightening. But the MHA seems like the best source of formal education that isn't watered down by conventional building material having nothing to do with wood stoves.
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Post by josephcrawley on Jun 6, 2015 15:06:27 GMT -8
Something to checkout would be pottery kiln building books. The principals in there are closer to masonry stoves than standard masonry. Also there are a lot of good youtube videos from europe.
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Post by patamos on Jun 7, 2015 8:40:14 GMT -8
One aspect worth considering is the finish surface you are going for. Many modern masonry stoves have outer skins of manufactured brick with portland cement based mortar. If that is the finish you want to produce then ya, 'masonry' skills will come in very handy.
However, if you choose to have cob and finish plasters as your outer skin then your brick work underneath doesn't have to be all that fancy - just structurally sound. This is a step towards old school wherein stove builders made their own bricks of clay, sand, manures and a bit of ash and sugar. When properly built these heaters stand the test of time, lasting hundreds of years… I started off doing concrete floors and footpaths because i loved floating a trowel. Once i discovered clay-based materials there was no going back. Clay is medicine, healthy to handle and get covered in day in day out. Portland cement is toxic.
Furthermore, when we consider that portland cement is far from ideal in thermal cycling applications… the direction to head is obvious
all IMHO
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Post by ericvw on Jun 8, 2015 16:24:23 GMT -8
Hi, rural - Have you come across the "clay slip" method of sticking bricks together? Search it up here, or on Goo Goo... Lot easier than slapping mortar to a brick face, and faster, too. Sorry if I missed it, but are you going for a J or a Batch? Or perhaps the Vortex variant like Pat, Matt, or Shilo & Adiel have been posting about- these types of stoves look and perform fantastic!!!! I started my trek with building molds(never did that before- pretty taxing on my pea brain) for a PvdB batch box! Tested in the back yard last summer.... Love it!!!! Just need to construct it in the basement(still!!!!). Keep at it, you'll find what you're looking for!
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rural
New Member
Posts: 38
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Post by rural on Jun 9, 2015 17:51:38 GMT -8
Thanks all. Interesting and useful points. I spent Sunday afternoon putting a rocket mass heater core together in my sons' sandbox. Just firebrick and clay slip mortar on a recycled brick base sitting on a vermiculite and clay slip "slab". Everything went well with the whole firebricks. The firebrick splits in the riser were more trouble. My riser ended up tapering from 7"x7" to 6-1/4"x6-1/4". It still burned just fine, as one would expect for a naked core. I'll redo the riser when I get some free time and the weather cooperates. Eric, I'm not using mortar. Just dipping the appropriate faces of the bricks in a bucket of clay slip and placing the brick. The trowel was only used for clean-up, and eventually left on the ground in favour of fingers. I'm interested in rocket mass heaters because they can be almost completely built from locally available and mostly natural materials, but Peter's designs have my attention too. More traditional masonry wood stoves are also interesting too me, because they don't have the fugly barrel of a rocket mass heater. The masonry wood stoves is where the masonry skills come in...although it would be nice to have a bit more skill when assembling a rocket mass heater's core. Pat, I suspect that my first experience with conventional Portland cement-based mortar may be my last. Hi, rural - Have you come across the "clay slip" method of sticking bricks together? Search it up here, or on Goo Goo... Lot easier than slapping mortar to a brick face, and faster, too. Sorry if I missed it, but are you going for a J or a Batch? Or perhaps the Vortex variant like Pat, Matt, or Shilo & Adiel have been posting about- these types of stoves look and perform fantastic!!!! I started my trek with building molds(never did that before- pretty taxing on my pea brain) for a PvdB batch box! Tested in the back yard last summer.... Love it!!!! Just need to construct it in the basement(still!!!!). Keep at it, you'll find what you're looking for!
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divad
New Member
Posts: 2
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Post by divad on Oct 9, 2015 14:23:58 GMT -8
I'm kind of feeling like it's the 1st day of school and I forgot my notebook. I'm building a 24'x24' home with a slab in northern Michigan and would like to put a RMH in but I have a lot of questions. 6" or 8" it'll be mostly an open room so RMH will be full time heat but can it do full time? And many more... Are there any workshops going on or someone in the area to talk to? I live in the CMU area.
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Post by mkrepel on Oct 11, 2015 7:35:39 GMT -8
Divad,
I would think your 24x24 home would be perfect for an RMH. A small, open floor plan is perfect for any sort of radiant heater. The most important feature of the RMH for full-time heating is the mass. You need to store enough heat to keep you warm after the fire goes out. Of course, the efficiency of the super hot burn must not be overlooked. Keep looking around at the pages here and at Permies.com. There is a wealth of information that is free for the reading. I would also recommend obtaining a copy of Ianto Evans' and Leslie Jackson's book: Rocket Mass Heaters, Superefficienct Woodstoves You Can Build (and snuggle up to).
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divad
New Member
Posts: 2
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Post by divad on Oct 12, 2015 7:32:17 GMT -8
Thank you, yes the book is in my cart for purchase Friday. I've been going though an overload of info and am trying not to get discouraged, theirs alot of people here who's wealth of info sounds above my pay grade, but this idea is fascinating to me.
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Post by daniel on Oct 12, 2015 7:39:08 GMT -8
Patamos, I would like to say that portland cement is not toxic, it is not good to breath before it is mixed a bit like perlite is, it is being said that concrete is not ecologic, perhaps due to the energy used to make it but cars are much more polluting. I'd say that once you build something of concrete that harm is almost consumed but there are other pollution that is ongoing....
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