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Post by patamos on Jan 15, 2014 9:55:08 GMT -8
Thanks for showing this Stephenson,
I am beginning something similar with a more open bell using concrete pavers for the roof of an open chamber. Supported by brick posts under. I am fairly new to stove building but have been natural building houses for many years now. One way to strengthen the top deck of your mass/flue chamber is to make a browncoat plaster (cob with well chopped straw) wet enough to spread (more like wiggle and drag) with a wooden or magnesium float. Place 1" at a time and then embed loose weave burlap that has been presoaked in clay slip. Cob over top of that with another 1/2" or so and you will have an organic mesh sandwich. Used coffee sacks are good for this, but go for the thinner looser weave. You could also use fiberglass mesh in 1/4" size. This is a good way to increase tensile strength and prevent cracking. The more cob-mesh-cob-mesh-cob... layers you embed the stronger and more air tight it becomes The lime will serve better as a thinner hard finish plaster
well being
pat
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Post by patamos on Jan 14, 2014 23:06:55 GMT -8
Thanks Matthew, Robert, and everyone else who is tuning into this thread. I once heard a definition of community: com (with, together) munic (service) = service together. This forum feels like a very authentic expression of that. And for very good reasons too...
Yes i'll be looking to fire it up, dry things out, patch up cracks etc, and see where the hot spots are. Will definitely double skin around the down draft chamber. Today i opted to modify the initial flue run by lengthening it to the end of the bench and then setting a 180 turn. I was puttering around with all different size bricks and so many tight curves, and realized the work that would go into making all that airtight could be solved with a buried round flue. I was also otherwise concerned about how the flue gasses would want to migrate down to the narrow far end if i had left the shorter flue run (ala earlier photos). Other possible advantages of this approach are that the gasses enter the bell higher up. The cobb above the galvy flue can readily support the bench surface above; And i can place a 4way elbow (near open elbow in pic) for a clean out with the inside port as a tweakable partial bypass of the longer flue run. 1.5" of clay perlite on the floor with 3/8" cobb plaster on top. Will probably place a skim of old (stinky) finish plaster once things dry to tighten up the floor and walls Two bench piers in place.
Into the rocket core build up soon.
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Post by patamos on Jan 14, 2014 19:25:55 GMT -8
Yes, happy to focus on this topic here. Apologies again for hopping topic. So to refine the implementation we will need to carve a concave curve into the 45 face of the triangular brick. Grinder with a masonry disc most likely. Important to stabilize the brick firmly and have both hands on the grinder as it likes to dance around. Big dust cloud for sure... well being pat
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Post by patamos on Jan 14, 2014 9:54:22 GMT -8
Thanks you Peter and Robert for sharing this info. It is very timely as i prepare to build my core. Getting into the details of brick layout, am i correct in assuming that 7" system makes for easier assembly with 4.5"x2.5"x9" bricks? Or is there another rationale for this size? This flue/bell will have about 38' ISA. Do you think the gasses from a 7" square riser will condense enough to flow through a 6" exhaust flue after the bell? The vertical flue after that will be 20' from ground to chimney cap. (Sorry for going off topic with this thread. I only just noticed the second page of discussion. Robert, perhaps the lowest brick at the back of the heat riser could be set back so that the top of the triangular brick is set back too. This could create the trip wire effect without too much cutting...) many thanks pat Attachments:
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Post by patamos on Jan 13, 2014 20:49:38 GMT -8
Hi Colin, The basic idea is that the double hydrogen electrons in water are ionically bound in the H2O molecule. When water is made turbid, ala splashing on rock at the bottom of a waterfall, many negatively charged hydrogen ions are released. When we absorb these ions into our bodies they have the effect of neutralizing free radicals. When clay dehydrates it releases such H- ions. This is why non-fired clay-based plasters and features within a dwelling are considered health enhancing. This is why a walk in nature after a spring/summer/fall shower can be so refreshing. Many companies are now making devices to ionize water that is coming out of the tap. Presumably by evoking specific patterns of turbulence. The jury is out as to whether some or any of these devises work well. And there is plenty of disinformation from the pharma-corp establishment who would rather we not be aware of freely available (and thus non-patentable) health care products. My train of thought in first posting was, if negative ions can be pulled from water by shaping its flow patterns, and if the turbidity of high velocity rocket combustion is having a similar effect on flue gasses... how might we evoke a dynamic in which the ions rebind with ( ) before exiting the flue? Setting up a slight electrostatic charge is one idea, as alluded to in the discussions from Pinhead's starter thread. I have just been wondering if the power of the fire's draft might somehow be utilized to power a subatomic reintegration in a relatively passive manner. Does anyone know which of the particulate ions are causing the respiratory trouble? ANd whether they are positive or negatively charged? well being pat
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Post by patamos on Jan 13, 2014 19:02:52 GMT -8
Thanks Robert,
Have you heard any news of how Sjang's heater worked out? Any learnings to share?
Yes will learn sketch up one day. For now hands in the mud...
p
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Post by patamos on Jan 13, 2014 16:41:47 GMT -8
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Post by patamos on Jan 13, 2014 16:36:13 GMT -8
Okay forum wiz-ards, Here is the basic idea A 6" (or 7") J-feed system with all the down draft exiting to one side. The preferred location is such that the heater core will be close to wooden stair risers. I am isolating well with clay perlite both sides of metal and/or backer board. But for this reason, along with aesthetic preference of the clients, i am doing other than metal barrel. In these pics you can hopefully see the double stacked firebricks where the downdraft chamber will lead away into a partial flue that leads into a bell. The heat riser will be located about where the back of the existing little stove is. A little harder to discern is the bypass flue near the bottom of the down draft in the foreground and the exhaust flue from the bell in the background. I'll likely stick with round elbows and careful cobbing. The damper will be between the 90 elbow bypass feeding off the downdraft chamber and the T with a 90 above. Primary ash pit at the front of the down draft chamber (beside the stove) I have been hoping to keep this down draft and primary flue a single skin unit but am thinking i might be better to double skin the front face of the bench at least to where the flue opens into the bell. I have a fair bit of 1/8" ceramic felt to play with. Can even double it up
The third pic shows an idea for baffles which are also placed to support the joints between 2'x2'x2" concrete pavers. Thinking also of flue/bell cleanout where my toes are pointing. Bell flue exit is in the top right corner of the pic.
All feedback is welcome and much appreciated.
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Post by patamos on Jan 12, 2014 10:25:21 GMT -8
Thanks Peter,
To clarify your response to Robert's sketch up, are you saying the top of the plate that separates the feed tube and p-channel had best be the same height as the top/ceiling of the feed tube, and the bottom of the plate the same height as the ceiling of the burn chamber?
If the entry surface of the feed and p-channel is flush, then i would be most inclined to want to cover them both at once. Is there any advantage to having a separate adjustment for the p-channel?
many thanks
well being
pat
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Post by patamos on Jan 11, 2014 22:15:39 GMT -8
Okay. When i read the thread started by Pinhead, the first marble that rattled around my noggin was trying to picture a way of inducing some sort of mirror image (opposing double cyclonic?) venturi effect near the exhaust stack exit. Like what permies do to ionize water. Can't remember the proper name for the effect. But have heard that one can buy little units to install directly in pex water lines. If some of what is heading out the stack is O2 vapour then at least one of the basic elements is in common. Maybe such a modification of gas trajectories could de/re/counter ionize the matter before it exits...
Beyond the proto-notion, please consider this post a brain fart of an intermediate impossibility....(?)
well being
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Post by patamos on Jan 11, 2014 21:39:08 GMT -8
Thanks Matthew,
Ya i'm seeing the story there. That spike in CO looks like the ones Peter VDB was getting whenever his fuel stack dropped down in the feed tube. I'm tuning way into the thread RObert recently started about J-feed trip wires. Looking to sort out the P-channel proximal to fuel feed. Still, if CO of 1100ppm is acceptable in Europe, things are well in hand. Today i pencilled my layout on the floor. I will drystack the footprint and set some of the ducting in its likely location tomorrow and send some pics for feedback on the 'widening flue turn' thread. I have the ear of 'some' of the regional building inspectors in the Cowchan and am preparing to give a talk/presentation to them next month about the basic process. So this makes me think about picking up some testo gear. Can you recommend a better set of gear than others?
Stove building is thoroughly becoming my favourite aspect of Nat Building. Lots of variety mixed with head time and wild sculpting. Very cool crowd on this forum to boot...
well being
pat
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Post by patamos on Jan 11, 2014 20:37:02 GMT -8
Thanks Donkey, Peter and Robert, I have been posing questions on two other threads as i commence this build. The main conversation thus far is happening at: donkey32.proboards.com/thread/1064/widening-flue-turns-matter?page=1&scrollTo=9784Where MatthewWalker and Pinhead are helping tons. I am really jazzed by the idea taking shape. I'm also connecting in with Robert's thread about J-feed trip wire and we are looking at ways (learning from Peter) to shape/accommodate P-channel and door closures. I'm still catching up on many a past thread so am very grateful for people offering to explain through the gaps in my awareness. I haven't go the sketch up figured out yet, but if you imagine a 6"x12" downdraft off one side of the heat riser morphing into a 5+' single skin brick flue just inside the front face of a curved 7' bench, then spilling into a larger bench bell behind the initial flue - ala half barrel bells, but with reclaimed brick and cobb. Looking to keep the outside front vertical wall thinnish (but tight with fiberglass mesh in the outer cob) so that it radiates a fair bit of what would otherwise happen with the barrel. Exit flue from bell down low behind the heat riser. Bypass flue T-s off from bottom of downdraft. Damper above then T-s into vertical exhaust. Essentially this is a part flue run part bell hybrid. Waterfall into fast running stream into big eddy pool. Also, funnily enough, it blows wide open my question of "does widening the flue turns matter?" Maybe that is reason enough to post the journey on that thread. I'll send pics tomorrow with the basic layout dry-stacked on the ground. Any feedback is welcome and much appreciated.
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Post by patamos on Jan 10, 2014 9:34:03 GMT -8
And talk about widening a flue turn...
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Post by patamos on Jan 10, 2014 9:30:01 GMT -8
Very cool. I am jazzed by all this evolution. Thanks for all the support you are offering here. I am gravitating into building the side walls of the bell (bench body) with brick and cobb. Fire brick for the downdraft, morphing into old red brick along the front face of the bench. This way i can approach the final curved shape of the bench sooner than later. The downdraft chamber off the side of the heat riser might start at 64" CSA (16"x4" or the like) and gradually shrink down to 36" once it curves and morphs into horizontal flue. Might be a 8"x4.5" chamber made of brick, maybe or 6" galvy pipe) just inside the front face of the bench towards the far end of it. Kind of like a water fall dropping into a fast running stream dropping into a big eddy pool before accelerating again (up the exhaust flue) elsewhere. Man, talk about natural building...
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Post by patamos on Jan 10, 2014 8:48:26 GMT -8
Hey Gang,
My apologies. I misinformed you about the thickness of the mild steel deck on my grittle. It is not 1/4" but 3/8". It was a busy time of building 6 months ago and much has since come to pass... But last night after writing i remembered that i was going to use 1/4" and had begun carving up part of the remains of an old fisher wood stove. But a few zip discs and nose full of carbon later... i opted to farm it out to my welding friend. He had a slab of 3/8" around, so we went with that.
Of note, i had been thinking of welding a piece to the bottom of the metal plate where the heat from the riser is concentrated, but was advised that that would increase the likelihood of warping. Instead, i utilized 3 little 1.5"x2"x3" chunks of kiln shelf to serve as legs upon which i suspended a round 6"x 1/2" slab of cast refractory 'pancake' over top of the heat riser. This way i was/am able to play with height of the baffle (is this the correct term?) and initial directions of gas flow in the shallow bell chamber. The deck (bell roof) sits 4" above the heat riser and the baffle 2". The centre still gets hotter first but is less concentrated than without a baffle. So this this helps keep the metal stable. I'll see if i can dig up an old picture.
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