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Post by jareldesign on Jan 10, 2016 10:32:07 GMT -8
Hi, This is my first post here after months of reading through just about every board and almost every thread. My background has been 25+ years of prototype design and motion picture special effects. My wife and I have created an "urban homestead" in the middle of our city raising over 75% of our food, including vegetables, fruit, chickens, quail, rabbits and Tilapia grown in aquaponic systems. I've applied what I do for a living to create a custom 2-stage evaporative cooling system and more recently solar air heating... The problem is, we get a LOT of cloudy days with rain. I've been aware of rocket stoves for years, creating a few paint can stoves, but after realizing that no matter how efficient my custom solar air heater is, there's still a gap in being able to heat our home (Working towards getting "off the grid" as much as possible). I don't ant to be "invasive" to our home, so I've looked at building a mass heater (heavily insulated) on our back porch and running separate ducting to extract the heat and run it into the house. My other option was creating some sort of rocket stove heater for our fireplace. I saw one here where the fireplace was closed up, but then found this one on You Tube: www.youtube.com/watch?v=95tdYqGbYiU&list=PLfouKMkHzSNS3h-5Y-lwH8_9DGWC1eern&index=4www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX7rof-Zcfs(Ironically, This gentleman lives just a few miles away! We've spoken on the phone and I've run a few modifications I want to incorporate which he agreed would make a world of difference. Going to visit him in a couple of days to examine his set up and talk more.) I understand that the stove pipe won't last long and I have a few ideas I'll share when I start a build thread, but for now, I want to lower our power bill ASAP (Last one was over $700!!!) I hope to start building my "test version" of his design late next week after curing the stove pipe paint in our BBQ and test running outside. I plan to install 1 (maybe 2 as a back up), gas detectors (CO2, Carbon Monoxide? I'd appreciate ANY suggestions in this department! Ex-Firefighter and VERY safety conscious!) As I learn more while running/fine tuning this system, I'll re-design and ask more questions when I start a build thread here. As I've researched this site and many others, I've come to a point where I need help in understanding the posts which has to do with terminology. (I ran into the same issues while developing my solar air heater and while designing and building my hybrid electric vehicle. Those who are familiar with the subject at hand use abbreviations and acronyms which slow down my ability to learn. What is: "CSI" What is: "CSA" ...and what do they mean/refer to? I'll try to add a few images of my solar heater (I'm getting about 100 degrees of heat at 90 CFM (Cubic Feet per Minute), for a few hours per day which have made a difference), and maybe my hybrid electric vehicle to give you a better idea of what I'm able to fabricate. (I derive just as much joy out of the building as I will the results of what I create.) I want to thank everyone here who have contributed to this site! I have learned SO MUCH! Thank you! Richard PS: Tried to post some photos but can't... Oh well. Thanks again!
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Post by peterberg on Jan 10, 2016 11:13:07 GMT -8
Hi Richard, welcome to the boards.
I know what CSI means, Crime Scene Ivestigation. But that isn't an acronym used in the rocket heater business as far as I am aware of.
CSA means Cross Section Area.
A rocket stove built entirely out of stove pipe, even without any insulation around it can't be taken seriously, sorry. At best it is a toy to show what heat can be produced by small sticks.
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Post by jareldesign on Jan 10, 2016 11:34:06 GMT -8
Thank you Peter!
I'm honored that you are the person who replied! I have read SO MUCH about your work and experimentation. Thank you for sharing all that you have!
I totally laughed out loud regarding "CSI" (= Crime Scene Investigation)! I may have read a typo on a thread and thought the same way you did, but I just had to ask in case I was missing something.
I'm assuming the cross section area will be calculated the same way I did for ducting for my solar heater ducting (Square and rectangular, much easier, and round ducting needing a little more math.) I'm assuming that "CSA" applies to everything within these systems from feed tube to fire box, riser, bell, exhaust ducting etc...
From what I've learned from the creator of the concept I'm going to "test", his real world results were pretty satisfactory considering the ease of build, cost etc... What keeps me "hopeful", is that he lives less than a couple of miles from me, experiencing the same climate and weather.
This is one of those "things", that I "just have to try"... (I'm addicted to designing, building etc and I don't mind failing at this point, but his design fits what I'm after and how it fits with existing structure in our home without being "invasive" both in structure and aesthetics and I am approaching this with the clear understanding that this may not come close to what I'm after. At the very least, this first attempt will give me a way to not only experiment, but apply my efforts to get "some" additional heat into our home (if very little by comparison to what I've seen here and other sites). What I learn (I do much better learning from "hands-on" experience rather than reading, and watching videos). from this "first" project, will help guide me to whatever I end up doing as a more "serious" project for home heating. (I often build several "preliminary prototypes" before beginning a final version for my clients. I learn during the process and can then apply what I've learned from "first hand" experience.
Again, Thank you SO much!
Best Regards,
Richard
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Post by satamax on Jan 10, 2016 11:35:31 GMT -8
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Post by jareldesign on Jan 10, 2016 12:02:58 GMT -8
Thanks Satamx!
I've read this thread and bookmarked it during my earlier research.
I'm considering that design VERY seriously!!!
When I discovered this duct based heat exchange design, It side tracked me because of the ease and low cost of building in our existing fireplace. For right now, I do want to proceed with this other design just as a test-bed to learn more, but most importantly, I can build this for under $200 and possibly have it running by next weekend. (It's just me... However 'stubborn" I may seem, please know that I approach all that I research and create with a LOT of "knowledge" (25+ years worth) and TOTALLY appreciate the design you shared and fully appreciate you steering me in that direction!
The most important thing I've learned in my design/prototype work, being to approach everything as if I know NOTHING: eyes and ears wide open to learn as much as I can, and being more than willing to throw out any and all pre-conceptions out the window. LOL!
I have and will re-read the thread you shared to learn more about it. I was in fact considering that fireplace insert design you shared until I found the one that I am going to try first. (With what I do for a living and around our "urban farm", even if I tear it apart as a failure, I have so many other projects I can use the parts for! LOL!)
Thanks again!
Richard
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Post by satamax on Jan 10, 2016 12:10:16 GMT -8
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Post by jareldesign on Feb 4, 2016 11:14:07 GMT -8
Peter, I'd like to thank you for all your hard work and sharing your results! I have learned SO MUCH! After building my first "version" of my design (testing it outside first!), and having it working in our home for two weeks has proved more than promising. I couldn't post photos of it here, but after reading through many threads over at the permies website, I posted details and photos of my "metal" system: www.permies.com/t/53496/rocket-stoves/Breaking-rules-inputEven though I've been burning at much lower temps and much lower efficiency than a true rocket stove, my wife and i were more than pleased at it's performance. I've take what I learned from operating it and will be combining what I have been learning since to completely re-design, test and re-build for next season. This will include molded/cast refractory components and focusing on the balance between mass heat collecting and radiating heat (something that ties in very closely with what I've been doing with the heat we have been getting to distribute the heat evenly throughout our entire home. I will continue to read, study, extrapolate and translate the knowledge I'm now collecting into creating a new design. After reading your thread on P-channel and trip wired development, I really just wanted to thank you for doing so much work and sharing it! I learned DO MUCH from your work! THANK YOU! Best Regards, Richard
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Post by satamax on Feb 4, 2016 12:12:43 GMT -8
Richard, check in the fireplaces threads at permies, i've had two or three SKP drawings which could inspire you. I've seen your fireplace "thing" at permies, and didn't even comment or got involved. You know what i think about metal innards.
About your fireplace itself, is it against an outside wall or inside? By it's viewable size, you can't realy use it as a primary bell i think. But may be extending it in front, on the hearth, you could do something with it.
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Post by jareldesign on Feb 4, 2016 17:27:33 GMT -8
thanks satamx!
I hadn't thought of looking at the fireplaces at permies!
till doing LOTS of research (several hours a day!, to learn more that will help me create a "proper" design that will fit our needs AND TRULY be a rocket stove (without metal! *wink*).
Although it was suggested at Permies, I would agree with you that the size of our fireplace is too small for an internal system. I'm looking at options that include replacing the left stack of bricks with a true bell and insulated riser, creating a cast J-tube, burn tunnel out of refractory, and bringing the exhaust back into the fireplace before deciding what to do with it next. (I'm looking for a balance between radiating and mass stored heat. Not sure how I will materialize it, just know that this system has had the capability of over heating our home (even as it is now)... I'm glad I created this first prototype just to get first hand experience and learn how a system might interact with our home.
We're using it and monitoring it closely for now while I continue to read just about everything I can get my hands on, taking notes and working towards creating a balanced system that is no more intrusive into our living room as this one is, burns at the correct temperatures and delivers the balance we want between radiant and mass stored heat.
Thanks again
Richard
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Post by satamax on Feb 4, 2016 22:59:34 GMT -8
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Post by jareldesign on Feb 5, 2016 15:22:47 GMT -8
Satamax, THANK YOU again!!! I agree... That huge fireplace/chimney looks like a wonderful "canvas" to me I'm an artist/engineer... I'll attach a couple of photos of pieces I've created. (I guess not... tried and I get a message that this forum is full... Oh well... If interested, there are some photos of some of my work on my website: http://www.jareldesign.com This will give you an idea of what I do for my day job and "where I'm coming from" as I develop this heater into a correctly designed system.) I like both of the smaller systems as well and LOVE that one included so much detail! Thank you especially for including that link! Read some of it and bookmarked it for later reading... (Although most of what I've read has suggested staying away from smaller CSA systems under 6"... (Your thoughts?) I've been reading and taking lots of notes... Just finished one of Erica's threads that really helped me by getting me to begin by establishing my actual needs (mass-hrs, what temp... radiant heat-how much-volume of room.... Also creosote and safety issues regarding ducting, fires, leaking and CO etc... One thing I've learned about our current sub-standard version, is our ability to blow air towards our central heating air intake (12' feet away), and by turning off its' heat and leaving the fan on,the entire house is warmed evenly in every room using our regular heating/cooling ducting and vents... (Maybe starting "backwards", but distribution of heat will not be an issue, just deciding how I want to transfer the heat from the system to the air intake. Right now, a small (4"), fan blows air across the top radiating tube towards that central air intake. (I just attached a thermo-switch (same kind that controls my solar air heater), that turns this fan on and off depending on pipe temperature.) So much more to learn, so many options... I love it! Thanks again! Richard
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Post by satamax on Feb 5, 2016 23:25:05 GMT -8
Richard, depending on where you're heading core wise.
6inch batch or 8 inch J for a house between 600sqft and 1000sqft, which is well insulated.
Above, 10 or 12 inch J 8 or 10 inch batch.
Anything smaller than that is not worth wasting your time.
Btw, i've seen your creations on permies. Please, stay on topic here. And there, you might see the off topic pictures and comments disapear at some point!
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Post by jareldesign on Feb 7, 2016 13:14:32 GMT -8
When you suggest 8" J, do you mean round diameter? (I would recalculate for square feed and burn tunnel? Would I then use an 8" round riser? Trying to keep CSA the same.throughout system as I've read.. Also trying to keep my riser at 6" round due to space on fireplace "ledge" which come out 15.75" and not wanting to extend beyond that while keeping space between insulated raiser tube and inside bell/barrel within proper specs.)
Thanks!
Richard
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Post by satamax on Feb 7, 2016 14:42:34 GMT -8
Richard, the "general consensus" is, would it be round or square, it's aproximately the same. As the friction (check boundary layer) makes the corners of a square prety much dead.
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Post by jareldesign on Feb 8, 2016 11:48:27 GMT -8
Thanks!
Back to reading, learning more, and back to the "drawing board". LOL!
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