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Post by peterberg on May 15, 2015 1:33:48 GMT -8
i just dont understand how it is possible without strong draft. that core is not drafting strong like peters cores. Maybe that's the crux, the straight batch box relies on strong draft in order to induce enough turbulence. And by doing that, creating excellent mixing of the pre-heated air and combustibles. Something is different in this Hydra batch box, I want to know more. As I understand it, the thing isn't coupled to a proper chimney, is this true? In case there's a chimney, what height is it and is it insulated, straight vertical or what? What's the temperature at the end of the system, quite high or not? Is there a secondary air intake somewhere in that core, what's the placement and the cross section area? And yes, you guys are right, more serious research need to be done. Interesting enough to think over the viability of flying to Israel. As far as I understand the state of affairs at the moment: I didn't expect the flames to go through riser/downer/riser in succession. Moreover, forming a double vortex in the second riser as well. This suggest there's oxygen still in there which didn't react in the first track of riser and downer. Excess air could be very low at the end of the process I'd think. What it looks like to me: the thing is acting as a full-blown wood gasifier. Mixing is presumably really excellent, reaction is still commencing in the second riser. According to a phisicist in the Netherlands, in the riser of the batch box there's probably a plasma going on. In broad terms, matter can be in one of four states: solid, liquid, gaseous and plasma. Each successive one in higher temperature ranges with more violent movement of molecules among other things. Also, a plasma is accompanied by the dissociation of molecular bonds, that last one in particular is very interesting. We all know one of the products of wood burning is the forming of water, much like the burning of natural gas. When the plasma is hot enough some of the water molecules could break down, producing hydrogen. This in turn is a highly combustible fuel so perhaps that could explain why this core is so crazy hot with just "an armful of sticks". Maybe there's a way to check whether the above is true or not. The presence of a significant number of charge carriers makes plasma electrically conductive so that it responds strongly to electromagnetic fields. So it could be possible to measure whether there's a plasma in there or not, provided there are enough charge carriers in there. All the above is pure speculation, I don't enjoy the benefits of science education. To my regret.
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Post by shilo on May 15, 2015 2:27:40 GMT -8
"the straight batch box relies on strong draft" not so strong.
the J can do it with 5-10 pa. the straight batch box can do it with only 12-17 pa. the 2 new cores, need something like 15-20 pa for good work. a common iron stove need 25 Pascal draft to operate good with clean fire and no spill.
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Post by satamax on May 15, 2015 2:38:10 GMT -8
Peter, plasma, realy? That would be mad! But if it has plasma inside, there's a simple way to test it; i remembered the Geissler tube we had at work when i worked in a calcium distilery. A simple way would be to drill two opposite holes in the heat riser walls, and chuck two electrodes in there. And use a car spark plug circuitry. www.giangrandi.ch/electronics/geissler/geissler.shtmlPut a galvanometer on one of the wires, and you can tell if there's plasma or not. The only problem, is to choose the right voltage. As some some sources could produce their own plasma, if the voltage is too high.
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Post by satamax on May 15, 2015 2:49:57 GMT -8
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Post by shilo on May 15, 2015 3:00:11 GMT -8
5-6 meter single wall 7" chimney. mainly straight vertical (2 45 elbows)
the temperature at the end of the system was 80C (10 pa draft) for the first burn cycle. in that period of time, the dragon is hot but not in a special way. it spill when you open the door at the mid burn. after the stove is hot and we have a coals bed we add a lot of wood and the monster wake up. craze flame pass, 130C at the end (20 pa draft) and strong rocket noise. it's a summer with over 30C we did 3 secondary air intakes. a normal p channel, a p channel under the coals (like walker channel but with out the vertical part) and one more like this under the second port. we played with open and close one or another but can't say absolute conclusion with no testo. we feel it's bad at the beginning and good when the thing is hot. the place is old tall drafty barn.
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adiel
Junior Member
Posts: 119
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Post by adiel on May 15, 2015 5:05:59 GMT -8
i just dont understand how it is possible without strong draft. that core is not drafting strong like peters cores. Maybe that's the crux, the straight batch box relies on strong draft in order to induce enough turbulence. And by doing that, creating excellent mixing of the pre-heated air and combustibles. Something is different in this Hydra batch box, I want to know more. As I understand it, the thing isn't coupled to a proper chimney, is this true? In case there's a chimney, what height is it and is it insulated, straight vertical or what? What's the temperature at the end of the system, quite high or not? Is there a secondary air intake somewhere in that core, what's the placement and the cross section area? And yes, you guys are right, more serious research need to be done. Interesting enough to think over the viability of flying to Israel. As far as I understand the state of affairs at the moment: I didn't expect the flames to go through riser/downer/riser in succession. Moreover, forming a double vortex in the second riser as well. This suggest there's oxygen still in there which didn't react in the first track of riser and downer. Excess air could be very low at the end of the process I'd think. What it looks like to me: the thing is acting as a full-blown wood gasifier. Mixing is presumably really excellent, reaction is still commencing in the second riser. According to a phisicist in the Netherlands, in the riser of the batch box there's probably a plasma going on. In broad terms, matter can be in one of four states: solid, liquid, gaseous and plasma. Each successive one in higher temperature ranges with more violent movement of molecules among other things. Also, a plasma is accompanied by the dissociation of molecular bonds, that last one in particular is very interesting. We all know one of the products of wood burning is the forming of water, much like the burning of natural gas. When the plasma is hot enough some of the water molecules could break down, producing hydrogen. This in turn is a highly combustible fuel so perhaps that could explain why this core is so crazy hot with just "an armful of sticks". Maybe there's a way to check whether the above is true or not. The presence of a significant number of charge carriers makes plasma electrically conductive so that it responds strongly to electromagnetic fields. So it could be possible to measure whether there's a plasma in there or not, provided there are enough charge carriers in there. All the above is pure speculation, I don't enjoy the benefits of science education. To my regret. shilo gave all the numbers i think so please look at this two skps. first one is what shilo developed out of matt's core and the second one is how we want to make matt's core. www68.zippyshare.com/v/0iSjP5jO/file.htmlwww68.zippyshare.com/v/OqAFjXw3/file.htmlplease look also at the video of our try with matt's core here www.dropbox.com/s/exxzbqx5n8sw9c4/20150513_130935.mp4?dl=0 - it is showing the place we worked on both cores are you serio
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Post by shilo on May 15, 2015 5:06:19 GMT -8
of course, you and everyone here are more then invitee to the holly land!
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Post by josephcrawley on May 15, 2015 8:43:41 GMT -8
Since this is for a cook stove core would it be possible to place the 2 risers and the negative riser(contra riser? sinker?) in a row to make the fire unit more compact or do you feel the twists are important for additional mixing?
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Post by peterberg on May 15, 2015 9:14:48 GMT -8
shilo gave all the numbers i think so please look at this two skps. first one is what shilo developed out of matt's core and the second one is how we want to make matt's core. Alas, SketchUp 15 flatly refuses to dance with my ageing computer. Please resend those in skp 14, that would be alright.
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morticcio
Full Member
"The problem with internet quotes is that you can't always depend on their accuracy" - Aristotle
Posts: 371
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Post by morticcio on May 15, 2015 9:52:05 GMT -8
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adiel
Junior Member
Posts: 119
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Post by adiel on May 15, 2015 11:22:25 GMT -8
sorry peter thanks morticcio
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Post by peterberg on May 15, 2015 13:15:08 GMT -8
Thanks Morti,
OK then,there are three cylinders now in the Hydra, for want of a better title. But I'm inclined to think the downdraft channel doesn't need to be a cylinder. Probably it would be enough to place the risers far enough apart to create an adequate space between those which could serve as a downdraft channel. Chances are that the whole setup would fit inside a square that way.
The chimney is just a bare pipe, when this is sufficient then anything would be sufficient. Temperatures outside of 30 C doesn't help draft either so it's a good sign it will run with a delta T of just 50 C. And yes, you'd need a Testo to optimize the air inlets. Very interesting, this could be another high-performance variant.
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morticcio
Full Member
"The problem with internet quotes is that you can't always depend on their accuracy" - Aristotle
Posts: 371
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Post by morticcio on May 15, 2015 23:39:53 GMT -8
Thanks for posting drawings and videos. A couple of questions... On the triple riser version, are the intermediate (first and second) risers in a bell or are thery connected by a vertical 180° bend? On the twin riser version, if there wasnt a ceramic glass cap, would a domed cap on the intermediate riser help with mixing? Thanks Andy
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Post by shilo on May 16, 2015 11:43:00 GMT -8
they connected by a vertical 180° bend. You don't whant them to cool.
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Post by johndepew on May 18, 2015 13:45:31 GMT -8
Is this double riser version the same as Matt's core in that it won't function as just a core, without a chimney, as a straight batch box would?
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