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Post by independentenergy on Feb 15, 2014 0:40:23 GMT -8
Hi I created another design for a kitchen stove, if broken riser work properly you could have a good heating oven, heating plate cooking and heating of the heat exchanger. Is enough space inside, is not as contorted as the other drawing the gas should not be too slow. I'm just undecided where to place the chimney, you have some solution? satamax I started using the object-oriented design. Why I can not attach files skp? tells me that the forum has reached its limit, how can I do? thanks
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Post by satamax on Feb 15, 2014 8:55:59 GMT -8
Well close your browser and restart it again. I think there's a bug with the forum software. If closing, clear your cache, close and restart. Try again. After all that. You will ask someone more qualified than me.
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Post by matthewwalker on Feb 15, 2014 9:05:04 GMT -8
Broken riser works well enough for me, my test system was running with sub 100ppm CO and mid 80% eff. You can certainly do better, but I find that performance acceptable. I think your design is a good one, I'd put the chimney exit at the bottom of course, and really just about any side of the bell seems like it would be fine. I think it's a nice looking system, makes me want to build one.
People keep talking about having trouble posting documents to the forum. I suspect it's just as it says, we've used up all the on site storage. Host the files somewhere else and link to them here instead.
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Post by independentenergy on Feb 15, 2014 9:53:33 GMT -8
Well close your browser and restart it again. I think there's a bug with the forum software. If closing, clear your cache, close and restart. Try again. After all that. You will ask someone more qualified than me. thanks satamax try, though on other occasions there have never succeeded.
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Post by independentenergy on Feb 15, 2014 10:16:48 GMT -8
Broken riser works well enough for me, my test system was running with sub 100ppm CO and mid 80% eff. You can certainly do better, but I find that performance acceptable. I think your design is a good one, I'd put the chimney exit at the bottom of course, and really just about any side of the bell seems like it would be fine. I think it's a nice looking system, makes me want to build one. People keep talking about having trouble posting documents to the forum. I suspect it's just as it says, we've used up all the on site storage. Host the files somewhere else and link to them here instead. Thanks for reply Matt. You are using a j-tube simple or optimized with P-channel and trip-wire? I use them. How could you improve the performance of the broken riser? My main problem with the j-tube is that it burns too quickly and I fill the combustion chamber embers. Unfortunately, not having instruments can not assess improvements in development, but tomorrow I'll try a broken riser with the measures that you have posted in the post dedicated to the topic. In the drawing I posted, the chimney is on the bottom as you advice, just that I have some doubts, but not being able to attach the file skp not think I can explain. I know of a site that allows you to upload files that are not images. sorry maybe I'm wrong section to post this morning, I had a lot of sleep, if you believe necessary to please the moderators to move the thread
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Post by matthewwalker on Feb 15, 2014 18:19:02 GMT -8
I was using a simple J tube, I'm sure it can be improved upon with some additional time spent on the core details you mention. I tend to throw 'em together quickly in the excitement to see if the idea has merit. I'm not sure how to improve it otherwise, other than to build the rest of the system to known good standards. I burned it nightly indoors for a week or two and frankly, I thought it worked every bit as well as my standard J. I didn't have any trouble with it at all, it had very strong draft and actually roared louder than most other heaters I've built. I believe it is a useful method for certain applications.
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Post by independentenergy on Feb 16, 2014 1:12:51 GMT -8
I was using a simple J tube, I'm sure it can be improved upon with some additional time spent on the core details you mention. I tend to throw 'em together quickly in the excitement to see if the idea has merit. I'm not sure how to improve it otherwise, other than to build the rest of the system to known good standards. I burned it nightly indoors for a week or two and frankly, I thought it worked every bit as well as my standard J. I didn't have any trouble with it at all, it had very strong draft and actually roared louder than most other heaters I've built. I believe it is a useful method for certain applications. My j-tube is now built with a vertical riser and am looking for the best functioning of the system, I built a P-channel trip-wire and then I put some sort of kick tail. According to visual cues (no smoke), olfactory (smell of the discharge is to a laundry in most cases), the combustion chamber is white when the fire is turned off, it works well, the only problem as I said is that the coals are too many and I obstruct the passage of flame into the combustion chamber, perhaps too little use wood that burns fast and creates a lot of coal, I'm thinking of building a box ash. As soon as I reached the best performance (in my experience) try to mount the broken riser and note the differences. Should I mount an experimental stove before they are installed in my home? thanks
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Post by independentenergy on Feb 16, 2014 1:28:22 GMT -8
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Post by independentenergy on Feb 16, 2014 3:36:10 GMT -8
I would like to get a distribution of heat in the second bell as shown in the figure (yellow line) that goes up to the top, but with the chimney down I'm afraid that the smoke is caught into it before reaching the top
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Post by matthewwalker on Feb 16, 2014 9:21:56 GMT -8
Ash build up is a function of a lot of things, but two important factors in my experience are the type/condition of fuel and more importantly the composition of the area of the core where the ash builds up.
Firstly, wet wood, and even some seasoned dense hardwoods like oak, will build a lot of coals. Hopefully your wood is well seasoned.
As for the core material, you really want high insulation values right where the coals are forming. That will focus the heat back on the fuel and help burn it completely. If you have high mass firebrick, or a thin steel that radiates the heat away from the fuel, you will be pulling the heat of combustion from the coals and they will burn slowly and incompletely causing a lot of build up. That was one of the first things that made me really want to build with something other than heavy brick. Every brick stove I've built had a lot of coal build up that eventually starts to close off the tunnel. The insulated cores don't do that, in my experience.
I'd say for sure do a test outdoors and make sure the broken riser works for your application. It's a new concept, and it isn't going to perform in a way that is acceptable to everyone. Peter has voiced his opinion that it doesn't work to his satisfaction, and you may find you feel the same way. I would strongly recommend you discover for yourself if it is acceptable to you.
I think that as long as there is adequate CSA in the bell past the oven you won't have serious bypass issues with the exit flue down there.
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Post by independentenergy on Feb 16, 2014 12:13:43 GMT -8
Matt thanks for the info, in effect use refractory bricks rather thick (6 mm) insulated with Superwool outside, but if you do not use refractory what to use? Vermiculite board? The Acacia wood is seasoned for 2 years. The problem is that the broken riser burns dirtier than a conventional riser?
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Post by peterberg on Feb 16, 2014 13:23:12 GMT -8
I would like to get a distribution of heat in the second bell as shown in the figure (yellow line) that goes up to the top, but with the chimney down I'm afraid that the smoke is caught into it before reaching the top The gases will go up first, provided the second bell is wide enough. That's the nature of a bell, it's strange and I had some difficulty to grasp the concept at first. But it certainly do work, no doubt about that.
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Post by matthewwalker on Feb 16, 2014 13:31:27 GMT -8
I use clay/perlite with a little sodium silicate or furnace cement as a hardener for my insulated cores. I didn't find my broken riser burned significantly dirtier. It burned quite clean, but not quite as low CO as my standard J heater when using the test equipment. If I didn't have test equipment I would have thought them to be the same, so it's not a dirty burn at all. Not sure if that was a result of the riser configuration or just the combination of factors when taking the whole heater into account. I don't have any issues with the broken riser, just not 100% comfortable recommending it without some caveats since Peter has expressed his doubts and I highly respect his opinion. That's why I say, good enough for me. Is it good enough for you? I do not know.
I just looked up your Acacia. I imagine that is the main factor in your large coal beds. I have no experience with it, just guessing based on the descriptions. It looks very dense, I'm sure it makes a large coal bed.
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Post by peterberg on Feb 16, 2014 13:40:23 GMT -8
It's a new concept, and it isn't going to perform in a way that is acceptable to everyone. Peter has voiced his opinion that it doesn't work to his satisfaction, and you may find you feel the same way. Hi Matt, It isn't that I do think the broken riser wouldn't work. I do suspect it will, provided a sufficient vertical height difference between the feed tube and the end of the riser is maintainted. See it as a sliding scale: when you start with a completely horizontal riser the gases won't rise because the end of the riser is level or even below the feed. When the end of the riser is high enough above the feed it will work, depending on how much friction there is further down the stove. Whether or not the riser is slanted and in which direction is largely irrelevant in my opinion. Additionally, this could be used to direct the hot gases coming out of the riser in a direction of your choice. In my experience, the stream spewed out by the riser do keep travelling in the same direction as the riser over a surprisingly large distance.
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Post by satamax on Feb 16, 2014 20:16:27 GMT -8
Matt, acacia = black locust.
Peter, i've had a thing rumaging through my head lately. In cases like this, i think we could do an "horizontal riser" I know it's impossible with a cob bench. But with a bell, we could keep a feed tube or batch box, along burn tunel, where the gases would all be burned. Then that would spread into the bell, cooling somewhat. Then go up an insulated chimney with the mouth at about the same level as the burn tunel. Like separating the elements forming a rocket stove. We would have to keep more heat to power the chimney. But who knows where that might lead.
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