Vortex Stove

[Vortex]

Feb 12, 2019 16:06:14 GMT -8 patamos said:

Hi Trev,

Been a long while since I hopped on the boards (been homeschooling, youth working, 5 or 6 heater and natural house builds at once... on the go 7 days a week for TOO long...)

I'm just now catching up on the progress you and the gang have made.  Looks like the V-port with ?? triple shoebox? is an improvement, especially as the deck of the middle/upper chambers can be tweaked at will.

Thanks so much for all the time and focus you have put into this research.

I'm just finishing off a huge masonry heater with a full size eco-box with bake oven.  Glad to have done it, but looking forward to coming back to this simpler approach.

well being

pat

Hi Pat, Good to have you back! Sounds like you've been busy, earned yourself a break.

Part of the idea of building my new stove with the dry stacked masonry held together inside a metal framed box, was so I could implement our V-port idea to try out different secondary burn chambers. I call this version the Aryan Vortex, as it was inspired by a video that docbb posted a link to a few years ago from 2011 called "The Furnace of the Ancient Aryan's".

Last I heard from you I think I was in the middle of my summer experiments with it in the garden. I cast the new parts and installed it in November, so I've now had 3-1/2 months of using it inside daily. I cant imagine not having an afterburner window now, would be like running blind. It teaches you just what it wants.

My latest video:



Added a draught regulator: donkey32.proboards.com/thread/3475/use-draught-stabiliser-regulator



I've also been experimenting with a restriction towards the end of the afterburner chamber, inspired by Brian's success with his. It's just a 1" strip of ceramic blanket so I can move it around easily:



Had some problems with heat etching of the glass on the afterburner: donkey32.proboards.com/post/31270/thread

[peterberg]

Feb 13, 2019 5:39:34 GMT -8 Vortex said:

Part of the idea of building my new stove with the dry stacked masonry held together inside a metal framed box, was so I could implement our V-port idea to try out different secondary burn chambers. I call this version the Aryan Vortex, as it was inspired by a video that docbb posted a link to a few years ago from 2011 called "The Furnace of the Ancient Aryan's".

And based on my development of the DSR1 in 2017, you tend to forget that.

There happened to be a regretful period in Germany during which the ruling power called themselves decendants of the ancient Aryans. Seen in that light, I'd think the name for your heater is an inauspicious choice.

[Orange]

I would like to hear an audio of the perfect double vortex

[patamos]

Ya I remember that post from docbb. It remained in my mind as something to try. And then when Peter mentioned getting good results with the fire fountain I had a go of it in my workshop heater.
Peter, so far as I am concerned you are the GRAND-FATHER of all the amazing innovations that have occurred here. Always experimenting and always backing it with hard science. Everybody i have come to know in the masonry heater world offers you respect - even if we sometimes forget to mention it.

This Aryan name can be an issue. Some historians credit that ancient culture with being the instigators of sack and pillage warfare.

Trev, in your mention of vastly reduced wood consumption: How much do you think is due to improved combustion? ANd now much improved harvest?

[Vortex]

Feb 13, 2019 10:07:45 GMT -8 peterberg said:

Feb 13, 2019 5:39:34 GMT -8 Vortex said:

Part of the idea of building my new stove with the dry stacked masonry held together inside a metal framed box, was so I could implement our V-port idea to try out different secondary burn chambers. I call this version the Aryan Vortex, as it was inspired by a video that docbb posted a link to a few years ago from 2011 called "The Furnace of the Ancient Aryan's".

And based on my development of the DSR1 in 2017, you tend to forget that.

There happened to be a regretful period in Germany during which the ruling power called themselves decendants of the ancient Aryans. Seen in that light, I'd think the name for your heater is an inauspicious choice.

To give credit were it's due Peter, your work on the DSR did encourage my existing plans to experiment with a port in the roof of my firebox, but seeing that video docbb posted in 2013 was what really inspired me, and I don't remember you giving him any credit either

The Aryan people were an ancient Indo-European group, who's good name like that of the sacred Swastika symbol was tainted by an undeserved association with hatred and bigotry. It's about time we reclaimed them. Aries is also a star constellation and an astrological sign who's symbol is the ram's horn.

[Vortex]

Feb 13, 2019 10:52:06 GMT -8 Orange said:

I would like to hear an audio of the perfect double vortex

Unfortunately my camera mic stopped working a couple of years ago. There isn't a huge roar like you might expect, but if I put a piece of wood about 1-1/2" below the port it roars quite loud. I've been experimenting with it for a few days and it definitely doesn't have a negative effect on the burn efficiency, not sure yet though if there is any benefit either.

[Vortex]

Feb 13, 2019 11:24:15 GMT -8 patamos said:

Trev, in your mention of vastly reduced wood consumption: How much do you think is due to improved combustion? ANd now much improved harvest?

My consumption dropped by about a third with the new Vortex stove still with the old style secondary burn chamber, and then about another third when I installed the Aryan style afterburner, so it seems to be about 50/50.

I have about 1.1 tons of mass, all airtight doors and a new airtight damper, it's built into a cast iron chimney collar that I close after the last of the embers are burned out. It gets so hot on one fill of wood now that I can have an infra-red sauna sat in front of it

[peterberg]

Feb 13, 2019 13:20:32 GMT -8 Vortex said:

To give credit were it's due Peter, your work on the DSR did encourage my existing plans to experiment with a port in the roof of my firebox, but seeing that video docbb posted in 2013 was what really inspired me, and I don't remember you giving him any credit either

So I am supposed to give credit to someone who posted a link? Are you serious?

[Vortex]

Of course not. I was referring to the stove.

[patamos]

Ya, about 3 years ago I sent docbb's link to that stove to Alex Chernov over at MHA, asking if he knew much about it. I vaguely recall him responding that he had seen things like that, but hadn't experimented with the design directly. I then went exploring some of the other wood-fire Russian sites, but man, epic rabbit holes there

[peterberg]

Feb 13, 2019 15:17:36 GMT -8 Vortex said:

Of course not. I was referring to the stove.

Even then, it's just one video that shows a pretty flame pattern, lots of those around...
No description, no general layout, no follow-up, measurements and results report is a thing that's regrettably as rare as a white lion. It inspired you, not the same to me.
I'd just have a very close look at the video and it seems to me the port is situated from left to right, parallel with the front. Instead of the back to front orientation you are using and what I used as well. Inspiration for the DSR design in my case came from Brian Livelsberger, also known as DCish. I credited him at the start of the thread.
donkey32.proboards.com/thread/2341/different-batch-core-riser-all

[patamos]

Ya, if anything the port on that Russian heater is square or slightly rectangular left to right, and situated at or near the very back of the fire box. Also with something of a vertical heat-riser effect.
I tried to mimic a smaller version of this in my workshop. But I could not get the post-port flame pattern to shape a double ram's horn. Instead the flame path wanted to round forward, much like when entering the heat riser on a J rocket, but with the whole set up tipped forward 90 degrees... so i played around with trip wires and back sweeps instead.

I think the fire fountain in docbb's video had much to do with the flame being able to exit the heatriser/port on 3 sides. I suspect this was also intended as a way to achieve a decent secondary burn in a large bake oven. Perhaps there is something to be explored there, but it would likely involve a wider upper shoe box.

[Vortex]

If you watch that Russian video carefully, you'll notice the rams horns seem to come to points at the ends. Early on in my experiments last summer I tried all sorts of different shaped ports to see if I could reverse engineer it from that clue. The only shape that produced it was a round port.

Here's a video from those experiments from Aug 6th last year:



After trying a few different sized round ports, I decided that I preferred the look of the double vortex produced by the rectangular port as it was a lot more defined.

[patamos]

Feb 13, 2019 13:49:01 GMT -8 Vortex said:

Feb 13, 2019 11:24:15 GMT -8 patamos said:

Trev, in your mention of vastly reduced wood consumption: How much do you think is due to improved combustion? ANd now much improved harvest?

My consumption dropped by about a third with the new Vortex stove still with the old style secondary burn chamber, and then about another third when I installed the Aryan style afterburner, so it seems to be about 50/50.

I have about 1.1 tons of mass, all airtight doors and a new airtight damper, it's built into a cast iron chimney collar that I close after the last of the embers are burned out. It gets so hot on one fill of wood now that I can have an infra-red sauna sat in front of it

Trev, I'm inclined to believe that the initial 1/3rd improvement had much to do with improved harvest.  Both of the heaters i have built with your original firebox (more or less) have 5 to 10 sq.ft. of cooktop plenum, 5sq.ft of downdraft chamber, over 6 cu.ft. of flue runs and 12cu.ft. of bell CSA.  And they draft fine. 

So your new layout with the magnetite mass is an impressive bit of engineering.

Regarding combustion efficiency, and why Peter's tests with the DSB did not ultimately stabilize as well as the rear exit batch box...  I wonder how much that has to do with variance in location of the fuel load.  In a batch box with rear exit/port the bulk of the fuel load remains close to the port as the burn progresses.  But with a top exit/port the fuel gets farther away as the fire burns 'down'.  Just a thought...

[Vortex]

Hey Pat, I think you are right. I have 3 times as much mass, with twice the length of channels in the new stove as I did in my old original one, so that would explain the increased heat harvesting and lower exhaust temps.

As for the firewood position relative to the ports, I've found it burns happiest when there is a few inches gap between the fuel and the inside of both the primary air inlet and the port. In the new setup I load my firebox mainly by standing the firewood vertically leaned against the back wall, so the front of the firewood is a 45 degree slope from just below the front of the port, down to just inside behind the primary air inlet. The longer it maintains that position, the longer the double vortex seems to stay in the afterburner.