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Post by perikooo on Nov 10, 2020 11:29:16 GMT -8
Hi: I'm new in the forum. I write from the north of Spain, from the Basque country. Some time ago I did a small course on the construction of Russian stoves (bell stoves). And now the time has come to start thinking seriously about what my stove will be like. Seeing what is out there, I liked the designs that Yasin (user of this forum) has made for the www.uzume.fr website. From its design, I think the one I need is the B28, since the space to heat is relatively large (80m ^ 2), but also the volume is quite large (300m ^ 3). It will be enough? Or maybe it's too big. When it comes to fitting the stove into my house, I see that I can't fit their designs directly, so I've started looking for how to do it. In principle it occurred to me to do it like this: (You can click on the image to enlarge it)
The stove will be built against the bathroom wall to heat it up. The rest of the house is diaphanous. I have tried to modify the core of the stove as little as possible, I have only changed the situation of the chimney from the right side to the rear. Where there is to make changes is in the bench, which in the original is on the left, and it has occurred to me to do it around the stove. The length is the same as in the Yasin design, but obviously, it has more curves. (Two more) Can I have chimney draft problems? I am drawing the stove with Sketup. When I have the drawing I will publish it here.
Best regards
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fuegos
Full Member
not out of the woods yet
Posts: 177
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Post by fuegos on Nov 10, 2020 12:58:15 GMT -8
Aupa perikooo welcome to the forum .Are you the first person from Euskal Herria to post on this forum ? i'm a beginner with rocket stoves but i think your first step should be to calculate what you need in terms of KW or W to heat your space.80 M2 is a relatively small space and a 180 mm system seems large for that space but you have to consider the construction of the building . Is it stone built ?,brick ? adobe ? or termoarcila ? This is an important factor in sizing your system . "I have tried to modify the core of the stove as little as possible" I think that's a good idea. My understanding of RMH tech is that the core design is critical . "The length is the same as in the Yasin design, but obviously, it has more curves. (Two more) Can I have chimney draft problems?" i think that yes this can be a problem as drag or friction is a problem on long pipe runs . Also Yasin says that the minimum height between the floor and the chimney top should be at lest 4 M .In my experience with other types of stove this can be critical but also with a RMH powering the exhaust is vital. Hopefully other more experienced members will be along soon to help out.
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Post by perikooo on Nov 10, 2020 13:30:53 GMT -8
Aupa perikooo welcome to the forum .Are you the first person from Euskal Herria to post on this forum ? i'm a beginner with rocket stoves but i think your first step should be to calculate what you need in terms of KW or W to heat your space.80 M2 is a relatively small space and a 180 mm system seems large for that space but you have to consider the construction of the building . Is it stone built ?,brick ? adobe ? or termoarcila ? This is an important factor in sizing your system . "I have tried to modify the core of the stove as little as possible" I think that's a good idea. My understanding of RMH tech is that the core design is critical . "The length is the same as in the Yasin design, but obviously, it has more curves. (Two more) Can I have chimney draft problems?" i think that yes this can be a problem as drag or friction is a problem on long pipe runs . Also Yasin says that the minimum height between the floor and the chimney top should be at lest 4 M .In my experience with other types of stove this can be critical but also with a RMH powering the exhaust is vital. Hopefully other more experienced members will be along soon to help out. Hello Fuegos: I know there are some other Russian stoves nearby, but I don't know if they are in the forum. Are you from spain? About your questions.... It is an old stone building, but with a new and very well isolated roof. Also, the walls will be isolated (in the near future). The heigh of the chimney is not a problem, will be about 5 meters. I have calculated the power requirements of my house. Suposing about 20ºC of maximun temperature diference, a volumen of 300m^3, isolation = 1.4, so i need about 9kw of heating power. One B28 RMH is supposed to have a 4,3kw each fire, so i will ned two (or three) fires to get the power needed.
Thanks for your answer.
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fuegos
Full Member
not out of the woods yet
Posts: 177
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Post by fuegos on Nov 11, 2020 3:12:16 GMT -8
I'm British but have lived in Spain for almost 20 years.Im not sure if you are familiar with the magazine Ecohabitar but there was an article about a company building masonry stoves in there a few years ago .Your power calculations look sound and you seem to be pretty well informed so i'm looking forward to the sketchup plans & keen to see the progress with this build.Your English is excellent , have you lived in an English speaking country ?
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yasin
New Member
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Post by yasin on Nov 11, 2020 5:29:25 GMT -8
Hello perikooo I like very much the bench all around the heater that you designed ! About the heating power calculation : do you plan to insulate your house in the future ? A coefficient of 1.4 is for a poorly insulated house. The B28 is a big heater and if you are planning to insulate your house in the future the B14 would be smaller, easier to build and less costly. The B28 is our second most built heater, right after the B14, but I think that this is unfortunate.. so much wood burnt because of poorly insulated houses ! Kind regards,
Edit : please excuse me, I had not seen your answer about the insulation ! What will it be made of ? How thick ? You can send me your design so that I check it.
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Post by perikooo on Nov 11, 2020 8:06:07 GMT -8
I'm British but have lived in Spain for almost 20 years.Im not sure if you are familiar with the magazine Ecohabitar but there was an article about a company building masonry stoves in there a few years ago .Your power calculations look sound and you seem to be pretty well informed so i'm looking forward to the sketchup plans & keen to see the progress with this build.Your English is excellent , have you lived in an English speaking country ? Hello Fuegos:
I did not know about Ecohabitar magazine, looks good. I will look for it.... My english is not very good.... I use google traslator to correct it.....
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Post by perikooo on Nov 11, 2020 10:12:00 GMT -8
Hello perikooo I like very much the bench all around the heater that you designed ! About the heating power calculation : do you plan to insulate your house in the future ? A coefficient of 1.4 is for a poorly insulated house. The B28 is a big heater and if you are planning to insulate your house in the future the B14 would be smaller, easier to build and less costly. The B28 is our second most built heater, right after the B14, but I think that this is unfortunate.. so much wood burnt because of poorly insulated houses ! Kind regards,
Edit : please excuse me, I had not seen your answer about the insulation ! What will it be made of ? How thick ? You can send me your design so that I check it.
Hello Yasin: Thanks for your answer!!! About isolation. We have planned to do it someday. We have not defined how it will be done but probably some kind of plasterboard with rock wool. Any recommendations on the insulation of a stone building? About power requirements. With 300 cubic meters of volume (the interior space is very high), a 20ºC difference in temperature, and assuming that I have 1.2 insulation, I obtain 7.2Kw of required heating power. A B14 has a power of 6.6kw with three fires. It will be enough? On the design of the stove, I am working on it. But I still have some doubts. 1) The bench around the stove has 2 more bends than its original design, it will have too much resistance?. The chimney will be about 5 or 5.5 meters. 2) As the gas outlet from the core to the bank is on the left, if I make a direct outlet, the bottom rear under the combustion chamber will not be heated by the exhaust gases. Will this be important for efficiency? 3) The bricks around the core of the firebox are big lintels, which I assume will be hard to come by. Can smaller bricks be used? Will this compromise the life of the combustion chamber? 4) In addition, I am studying the possibility of bringing in air from outside to feed the stove. The idea is to place a large pipe buried in the side of the bench so that the air is preheated before entering the stove. Will this be useful? I will send the sketup asap. Best regards
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yasin
New Member
Posts: 33
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Post by yasin on Nov 11, 2020 23:10:18 GMT -8
hello perikoooInsulation from the outside would be a must, but I know it is not always feasible. The B14V4 is at its limit with your house, but you can always improve the insulation. 1. If the total length of the gaz path is longer, you need to shorten it because the exit temperature is already low 2. it's not a problem for the efficiency. Maybe the bench compensates for the loss of that part of the circuit. 3. smaller bricks are possible but you must make the steel frame ! And I would'nt recommend the B28 without lintels. 4. the outside air, as you described it, will be counter productive. It is not because you have a pipe coming close to the stove that the air will come from the pipe to the stove.. it might be the opposite ! The only option to get the air from outside is a deep change in the core and the heater.. like on the B14V5. It is unfortunately out of reach of a self builder. regards,
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Post by perikooo on Nov 12, 2020 7:17:54 GMT -8
hello perikooo Insulation from the outside would be a must, but I know it is not always feasible. The B14V4 is at its limit with your house, but you can always improve the insulation. 1. If the total length of the gaz path is longer, you need to shorten it because the exit temperature is already low 2. it's not a problem for the efficiency. Maybe the bench compensates for the loss of that part of the circuit. 3. smaller bricks are possible but you must make the steel frame ! And I would'nt recommend the B28 without lintels. 4. the outside air, as you described it, will be counter productive. It is not because you have a pipe coming close to the stove that the air will come from the pipe to the stove.. it might be the opposite ! The only option to get the air from outside is a deep change in the core and the heater.. like on the B14V5. It is unfortunately out of reach of a self builder. regards, Hello Yasin: 1. The gas path length in my test design is 5700mm, in your design is 5100mm. My design is 600mm longer, also it has 2 more bends.... I suppose this is to much drag, right? Is there something i can do to make up? 2. Ok 3. So i can use smaller bricks with B14, but with B28 i need to use lintels. Do you know where i can buy then in the north of spain or south-west of france? 4. I think this point needs a better explanation. I already have an 150mm pipe buriend on the ground below where the stove will be. Now it is covered, but can be used. Drawing the bench, i have seen that the bench will be higher than the door so i have two options. Lift the core of the stove one brick, so the door will be over the bench. Or just make the door shorter, and feed air trough a fixed pipe. The pipe would be stuck in the bank wall. It could be useful? Something like this: About B14V5, i have seen your demo video, an it look like a very professional stove, and also is very nice....
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Post by perikooo on Nov 12, 2020 10:22:30 GMT -8
Hello: Here is the test design. It is just an unfinished sketch. I have moved the chimney from the right to the back of the stove, and drew the banc around the stove. The cover of the banc is also unfinished, wich some unsupported bricks.. Also, i have to think about the stove door. The banc is higher than the door so i have two options. Raise the stove core up one brick, so the door will be over the bench. Or just shorten the door, and feed air trough a fixed pipe (You have a sketch on that idea on the post above). The bench is probably too long to have a good draft, so i may need to scrap this design. Anyway, it is a good training....
Here you can donwload the sketchup file:
Any suggestion is welcome
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Post by perikooo on Nov 13, 2020 14:04:46 GMT -8
This is a view of the design: (Click on it to enlarge)
This still has the door problem to fix.
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Post by Orange on Nov 14, 2020 2:57:03 GMT -8
wow, that's 250mm system, did you calculate your ISA? It should be around 14,7m2.
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yasin
New Member
Posts: 33
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Post by yasin on Nov 15, 2020 10:52:21 GMT -8
Orange the ISA is rather the maximal surface area, but in fact to have a decent draft it is better in many cases to use less ISA. On all our builds the ISA is much less than the standard values. That's also why those heaters are smaller. @perikoo Thanks for the sketchup file and the comment on the B14V5 ! - I think that you should reduce the length of your bench. Why not only on the right side ? - If you look for lintels, try to contact our friend Eduardo Marquina on estufasdeinercia.wordpress.com/ or you can also make them with refractory concrete. We are in the south of france and if you want the standard kit of bricks and lintels with mortar to build your B28, we can send it to you. If you are interested, look at the price at our website store and then I'll make you a quote with the delivery for spain. - that pipe will not work, I'm afraid. Unfortunately this air setup is out of reach of a self builder. The pipe you draw is complicated to build and it will change the amount of air that is fed into firebox because of the bends. They create restrictions in the flow of air which limit the air supply and compromise the quality of the burn. Regards
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Post by perikooo on Nov 17, 2020 9:21:24 GMT -8
- I think that you should reduce the length of your bench. Why not only on the right side ? - If you look for lintels, try to contact our friend Eduardo Marquina on estufasdeinercia.wordpress.com/ or you can also make them with refractory concrete. We are in the south of france and if you want the standard kit of bricks and lintels with mortar to build your B28, we can send it to you. If you are interested, look at the price at our website store and then I'll make you a quote with the delivery for spain. - that pipe will not work, I'm afraid. Unfortunately this air setup is out of reach of a self builder. The pipe you draw is complicated to build and it will change the amount of air that is fed into firebox because of the bends. They create restrictions in the flow of air which limit the air supply and compromise the quality of the burn. Regards About the length of the bench, I was thinking about how to reduce it, but I like the bench around the stove. So I'm thinking of doing a double path (If that makes any sense) It would consist of putting a clapper, which allows these two routes, one long and the other short. So when the stove is cold, or it is not very cold outside, the clapper is put on one side and the smoke makes a short path and the stove would have a better draft. And when the stove is hot, or when it is very cold outside, the clapper is put on the other side and the smoke travels longer. Short Path (3.3 meters) Long Path (4.3 meters) As for putting the bank only on the right side, I understand that you mean making the exit directly on the right side of the core towards the bank. Wouldn't it be a very small bank? I understand that the thermal mass of the stove would be greatly reduced, right? I am the one to the left of Eduardo in the photo. We did a course on stove construction with him. He is a nice person.
And finally, about the external air intake. That drawing on the air intake is just a "quick and dirty" sketch to show the concept. I understand that the tube should be something more elaborate. I have no problem making the part, as I have the welding equipment and the knowledge to weld it. To give you an idea, all the metal parts of the stove will be made by me. Where I lack knowledge is what the design of the tube should be. More data. The house is on a south-facing slope that, warmed by the sun, almost always blows air. The air intake is on that facade, and right now, 90% of the time, there is a good air current at the outlet. So I understand that with a pipe without many restrictions, the stove should not be short of air. And anyway, I had planned to put a flap to regulate the outside / inside air that the stove takes.
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Post by perikooo on Nov 17, 2020 9:26:21 GMT -8
On the short bench, another possibility would be to make the route as the short side, but without building the long route: A very fast and dirty drawing....
Thus the route would be 1 meter shorter than in a normal B28.
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