Rocket Stove Certification

[chronictom]

"Why we expect any single heating system to keep every inch of the house (including the closets) to 68 degrees F. is beyond me."

It's part of the consumption philosophy...

We heat the back of the box we are cooling, dump the cold air out on the floor and then cool down the warm air that replaces it. Then we vent the heat from it into the room, good for winter, during summer, we then try to cool the room down while doing it (when it's putting out the most heat).

We use dryers in the summer, which have no insulation to keep the heat where it should be (in the dryer), so it adds to the work load to cool in the summer, then in the winter, we blow all that hot air outside, while heating the inside.

It isn't about sense... it's about instant gratification and lack of responsibility...

[jpmanley]

Sept 8, 2008 4:56:08 GMT -8 chronictom said:

I think you may be getting yourself stuck on masonry stoves and aren't seeing what is being written here about the benches and rocket stoves for heating.

The benches (mass) are not meant to heat a house, they capture the waste heat that usually goes straight up the chimney. As for heating the house, that is why some people put barrels or such arrangements over the rocket tube.

As for "especially someplace where it gets very cold, like where I live in Maine"...

When you decide to travel to a place that actually gets cold and run some tests, let me know...

Tom
from Northern Ontario, Canada

If I ever decide to go to the great white north to do rocket stove testing, it won't be in the winter.

I have seen lots of cob/rocket/heaters/cookstoves on the web in my interest in wood heat. What I have not seen is any performance details, such as the surface temps of the various cob surfaces, or how long they stay warm after a burn.
Have I missed a site that has some, or has anyone here got a infrared temp gun that they have been using?

To me, if you are going to go to the effort to build something that burns wood for heating in very cold climates, you would want to maximize all your efforts to do so. I see a bench that only gets warm at best as a waste of space & mass. But it does make for a good looking overall project.

As you say above, if the bench is for waste heat, and the barrel is added to enable the rocket to heat the house or room, than what is the rocket for without them?

I am not stuck on masonry heaters, but I am totaly sold on them.
I have traveled a number of times to study heater design and construction in Sweden, Finland and Germany, and I have been making a living building them, and bakeovens, since the late 70's.
They work. They are the cleanest, most efficient, and safest wood burning heating system that I know of. Scaled to size they can heat a room or a house.

I am talking about heating a house here, since this thread evolved around the topic of certification, and rockets sharing the same definition of a masonry heater.

When it comes to cooking food with the least wood, I think that rocket stoves are are a great way to go, and I support the work of the crew at Aprovecho.

JP

[chronictom]

I'm really curious about this...

Many people, some in this group, others on other groups write about the rocket stoves AND benches that they have, and report that they are extremely happy with their performance, including for the purposes of heating....

You obviously don't accept their experiences as valid, so why would them reporting numbers make it any better? Either you accept what they say as them being factual, or you don't... no??

And about visiting the great white north to run tests... some of us actually live in these climates year round, and have a lot more invested in the issue of staying warm in -40 and -50 degree temperatures then as an intellectual exercise.

On the matter of masonry stoves... Yes they are a wonderful thing, especially for the builders that contract out to build them. That would be those same builders that I do believe you said that you helped (or are helping to) make it LAW that they had to be used to build them.

As for talking about heating a house... You stated this why? A house can be anything from 250 square foot room to a 47 bedroom mansion, for someone who seems to look down on non-quantified numbers, this seems like a strange thing for you to say. If what you meant, was, you don't think they would be very good for heating the aforementioned 47 bedroom house, I will 100% agree...

These are based on the idea that anyone can build them to do what they need to do according to their location, without spending 1000's of dollars to hire a 'certified' masonry stove builder to come in.

Whether it is the group at Aprovecho, or those here who are working on it, or those elsewhere, I think the work should be supported, as it is about empowering people to do for themselves, instead of looking for solutions that require money to be thrown at others to do it for them. Especially seems a lot of people don't have tons of money to throw at others like that in the first place.

In terms of them being similar, they are not, from the simple fact that in some areas, due to some people, you cannot build a masonry heater without a license now, whereas you can build a rocket stove... That is, until someone wanders along and says, "oh, let's make it so we don't get screwed by others writing laws and regulations that will hinder peoples choices to do these things, by writing the laws ourselves"

Of course, that's just a reflection of my views on the subject...

[larsmith]

I'm fortunate, in that, from what I understand, I live in a community ( 400 population ? ) in which the codes are not a heavy burden ( yet ? ). I didn't get a building permit ( never even tho't to ask / apply for one ... nor have I told anyone ( except my neighbor ) what I'm up to.

Having said that, I can understand people's concern about safety ... safety from fires, safety of family members and, for some, community. If my ignorance, carelessness, neglegence results in a fire, that fire could 1) take lives of family members 2) take lives of community members ( whether it be from spreading fire or firemen trying to save lives in my house ).

If the local volunteer fire department would like to "certify" that 1) my rocket is NOT giving off dangerous CO into my house and 2) is safely vented to the outside with no appreciable possibility of wall / structure fire and 3) that any internal fire issues are manageable to the point of being deemed "safe", I can understand that. Concerned community members looking out for community members is OK with me, provided it doesn't become a power trip for them ( and sadly enough such situations can rapidly become just that ... a power / political trip. )

Farz I'm concerned, my house is not close enough to put any other house in jeopardy.

I've got CO detectors / smoke detectors galore in the house, as well as fire extinguishers.

I've purchased Benjamin-Moore fire retardant paint and painted everything that even LOOKS like wood, not only in my new rocket room but in the adjoining rooms as well. I've gone as far as to use my torch to test that fire retardant paint on two walls and a door in those rooms and will willingly do so with "officials" present if they wish ....

My walls are filled with the fire-retardant cellulose ( yes, we tested it thoroughly ) insulation so we've gone "the distance" to assure our own safety and therefore the safety of our community and not the least of which our local voluntary fire department.

My floor is totally sand so it's not a fire issue. I'm probably not going to use the 55 gallon barrel but rather am going to use almost exclusively 2.5" by 4.5" by (almost) 9" fire brick for 1) the heat riser and 2) exhaust channels which will lead in turn to 3) a brick in-floor ( ie: under sand ) heat battery.

I personally don't care to have any laws which restrict my independence in this matter nor any laws which appear to me to be protectionistic ie: which state that only certified ( union ? ) brick masons can do the work which I can do myself and which I can prove safe in all areas of CO emmissions / fire hazard ( etc ).

Gov't is already too big ... too invasive ... too powerful ...

I'll get off my soap box now.

[chronictom]

If codes were to represent sense, instead of control issues, I wouldn't be nearly as against them as I am.

I was once having a conversation about build a roof, in which I stated my needs, which were about 5 times the 'code' requirement for this area. When I was told that I was being unreasonable, and I pointed out that I can take them through the area and point to buildings that were built to code that had roofs collapse on them, and wished to avoid that, I was told that wasn't a code issue, because the code can't cover all possibilities of what could happen. Which was a freakishly heavy snow even for here...

When it comes to fire, there are even more that apply then normal. I don't know what it is like elsewhere, but here it gets very 'out of touch' quickly... As an example... using an outdoor wood furnace is by any intelligent persons measure, much safer and less harsh on a home then having any type of indoor furnace. Not just in terms of fire saftey, but also in terms of not tracking tons of mud, dirts, moisture, bugs and such along with the wood to burn.

Yet, at least 75% of the insurance companies up here will not insure a place with an outdoor furnace unless it is at least 300 feet away from ANY building. A few of them cut that down to 200 or 250 feet. They make noises about it being because of the added possibility of water damage from the radiant heat system, but can't explain what the distance to the furnace matters on that.

How does that make sense? lol

Codes can be a good thing, but they rarely reflect the basic idea that they are supposed to be for, and that is safety. They are more concerned with commercial viability and the interests that those with money are after, usually some form of control, like having registered only builders allowed.

But in the end, what it comes down to is that unless they can show you where something you have done is unsafe, they should have no place interfering in any way. This idea that you must conform to a certain way, or method of doing something, with no regard to if something can perform equally or in some cases better, is just whacked. It goes against our very nature in that humans (some) in general, are always growing and learning and coming up with ideas that are 'outside the box'...

Nice soap box larsmith... just had to try it out myself...

[Donkey]

jpmanley,
That's what these boards are for.. To encourage further conversations around rocket stoves, to get folks interested in testing these things for real. To encourage pushing the boundaries of what it is we think they can do and what it is we think they are for. I think you will find that peterberg is doing exactly what you seem to be asking for. Building stoves and quantifying the results.

I have been tinkering with these things for a few years now and while I've not been diligent in discovering the numbers, I have been paying close attention to the level of comfort they can provide. Which is the point really.. Comfort!
Temperature readings, efficiency graphs and fine tuned instrumentation are all well and good but NONE of that tells you ANYTHING about what all this is really about.

I think that all too often, when we investigate these matters, folks tend to get stuck in their method of investigation, stuck in their instruments. We loose sight of what it is that originally set out to do. If not to improve our lot in life, build a more comfortable, tolerable and/or responsible life, then what??
It seems to me that the MHA started out to do something good. The realization came that mass stoves would be ruined or excluded by the EPA and other industry types seeking to build themselves an exclusive regulatory niche. So, you've worked hard to prove your case. Masonry stoves have their place and in most ways they are simply superior to the alternatives.

BUT!! Now you have to avoid becoming part of the problem that motivated you all in the first place. By building in language that restricts instead of includes you are well on the path to becoming a part of the problem. You MUST keep sight of what it is that is important, what it is that we all need and what the desirable outcomes could be.

As an addendum, i gotta say -- The folks at Aprovecho have done a great service with their stoves for sure. I find it odd though that in the MANY years that they have been working on these stoves there has been little to almost no evolution.. Granted, they at Aprovecho are really focussed on one purpose and they have done it well.. Still I find it odd that their biggest discovery has been the EXACT gap between the pot and the stove sides.
Yikes!!
I mean no disrespect, but we four, at our two week stint in a mud-puddle ridden shack in Oregon discovered more about the possibilities than over a decade of work in well stocked laboratories not too far down the road.. go figure.

[chronictom]

"I think that all too often, when we investigate these matters, folks tend to get stuck in their method of investigation, stuck in their instruments."

Thats a huge issue right there. It applies to all aspects of life as well. Without being specific, there is a group of people that I absolutely love the path they started to take about 40 years ago, they took a simple idea and ran with it and made it great... but they got stuck on the 'image' that was put on them, and allowed themselves to block out any aspects other then the ones they came up with and they stalled because of it.

All you have to do is look through books related to back to the land type issues over the last half a century to see it. The one nice thing about it, is that because of the access to information these days, others (like us), can pick through them and find the pieces that work together best for ourselves.

I do like the statement of "By building in language that restricts instead of includes you are well on the path to becoming a part of the problem." or more accurately the 'inclusive' version of that statement... as in "We need to use language that includes rather then restricts to avoid becoming part of the problem"

In my rant there, I never said this and I should have... I have no doubt that almost all people who were involved in getting us to where we are today, (including peter, and masonary stoves) started with the idea of making a better place and situation. Unfortunatley, there is a very fine line between the two, and once it starts, it has (in every case I know of) went to far.

[Donkey]

Well.. To be fair, in order to do "science" you have to put on the blinders so to speak.. All in the name of "objectivity".
It's just that over time they tend to grow into your face and eventually hinder vision rather than focus it (which is always the original intent).
Harder to see in yourself, easier in others.

[chronictom]

lol, the first thing you blind yourself to is your own faults...

In some way, I guess it is necessary, because you have to suspend belief and look for knowledge to do so, which is hard if you kept doubting yourself...

[jpmanley]

I happen to be a bit of a curious person. I like to know things, especially when it comes to wood burning.
I know a bit from 20 years of experience with heating with a masonry heater. I know what temps need to be reached on the surface to heat a (reasonable) space.
Most people simply believe what they want to believe. I like to know details before I make a decision about something. It seems to be a simple request to know surface temps of a heating appliance.
So, no, I don't take anyone word as factual. Do you take anyones word on everything?
Living in the great white north, how big is your house? How many rooms do you heat? Do you heat every room individually? Do you heat your house with a rocket stove? How big is the firebox, how thick are the walls? How often do you fire it? How warm do you like to be. How much wood do you burn in a winter (or is it really cold in the summer too).

I am still curious. As you say above, if the bench is for waste heat, and the barrel is added to enable the rocket to heat the house or room, than what is the rocket without them? Its a serious question.

Over the course of the last 30 years, there have been many heaters built that do not heat work well, fall apart, or are even a fire hazard. You may like the idea of reinventing the wheel, but it makes sense to me that if there is a body of knowledge that can inform someone on the best way to build a heater, than that is a good thing. The astm standards cover a myriad of details to build a safe working heater.

Sorry that I seem to say such strange things. I thought that it was safe to assume that I/we am talk ing about relatively normal sized houses. I mean, as if someone with a 47 room mansion would even be interested in a rocket or a heater.

What are you talking about? Throwing thousands of dollars at a problem? Just because I build heaters for a living (i mean we all have to do something for our daily bread) does not mean that I try to stiffle people who want to do it theirselves. I assist dozens of people every year, here in Maine, the US, ever Canada. I encourage it all the time. But if someone is not inclined to want to become a mason or heater builder to have a heater, I will provide that service. Do you think that everyone wants to, has the inclination to and the talent to build themselves an efficient heating system. What do you do for a living?

You seem to have an attitude about paying someone for performing a service. Do you also feel that anyone that wants to, and has the inclination and time to spend, can build a house, wire a house, plumb a house, install a furnace, solar system, septic system. There is always an out house, but many places in the states prohibit them. What about up there?
BTW, unlike, it seems, yourself, there are plenty of people who have the money to "throw" at people (I prefer to call it being hired) trying to make a living. Maybe it's different in Canada.
Do you get paid to do anything?

I can dig it though. I bought my land in 1975, built my own house, wired it, plumbed it, roofed it and build a few heaters to heat it. I was/am inclined to do it myself. I consider myself in the minority. Hard to do that these days, even here in Maine.

I am curious though, who are the people, and where are the places that have mandated that you have to have a license to build a heater, but not for a rocket. This is another serious question. Back it up!
You are absolutely right though. Rocket stoves are not masonry heaters.
You also seem to be missing a detail about who is making the rules and regulations. There are numerous states and counties (in the US) that prohibit the burning of bakeovens, fireplaces and heaters. The EPA, and local municipalities made the ruling, not me, not the MHA. What would you do about that, if you have a trade that you have literally created and developed over the past 40 years? Just give up your power and roll over and find another way to make a living?
Not me!

JP

[larsmith]

JP,

I'd like to correspond with you re: masonry stove capabilities, etc but think it best if we did it via EMail ( or phone, if you'd prefer ). You can find my EMail address by clicking on my name which appears to the left of this message.

[jpmanley]

Sept 13, 2008 14:51:07 GMT -8 Donkey said:

jpmanley,
That's what these boards are for.. To encourage further conversations around rocket stoves, to get folks interested in testing these things for real. To encourage pushing the boundaries of what it is we think they can do and what it is we think they are for. I think you will find that peterberg is doing exactly what you seem to be asking for. Building stoves and quantifying the results.

I have been tinkering with these things for a few years now and while I've not been diligent in discovering the numbers, I have been paying close attention to the level of comfort they can provide. Which is the point really.. Comfort!
Temperature readings, efficiency graphs and fine tuned instrumentation are all well and good but NONE of that tells you ANYTHING about what all this is really about.



I think that all too often, when we investigate these matters, folks tend to get stuck in their method of investigation, stuck in their instruments. We loose sight of what it is that originally set out to do. If not to improve our lot in life, build a more comfortable, tolerable and/or responsible life, then what??
It seems to me that the MHA started out to do something good. The realization came that mass stoves would be ruined or excluded by the EPA and other industry types seeking to build themselves an exclusive regulatory niche. So, you've worked hard to prove your case. Masonry stoves have their place and in most ways they are simply superior to the alternatives.

BUT!! Now you have to avoid becoming part of the problem that motivated you all in the first place. By building in language that restricts instead of includes you are well on the path to becoming a part of the problem. You MUST keep sight of what it is that is important, what it is that we all need and what the desirable outcomes could be.


As an addendum, i gotta say -- The folks at Aprovecho have done a great service with their stoves for sure. I find it odd though that in the MANY years that they have been working on these stoves there has been little to almost no evolution.. Granted, they at Aprovecho are really focussed on one purpose and they have done it well.. Still I find it odd that their biggest discovery has been the EXACT gap between the pot and the stove sides.
Yikes!!
I mean no disrespect, but we four, at our two week stint in a mud-puddle ridden shack in Oregon discovered more about the possibilities than over a decade of work in well stocked laboratories not too far down the road.. go figure.

I thought I asked a simple question, has anyone done any temp readings.
Why are you against a few FACTS to add to your opinions. I am not talking high tech specialized stuff. You can buy a simple infra red temp reader for under $100, some for much less.

But I am still interested.
To say rockets have provided you with comfort, is a vague and individual thing. How large an area do you heat with your rocket?How much do you rely your rocket to heat? How cold and severe is your winter? How large is the firebox? What is the size of the wood you burn? How often do you fire it, and how long does the heat last? How big is the area that you heat? Is it your sole source of heat?

Perhaps I am thick as a brick, but could you be more specific regarding "language that restricts instead of includes".

Do you suppose that, for instance, electric wireing codes should be written as simple suggestions, but encourage everyone to feel free to experiment?

So as my addendum, I gotta say, if what you wrote about the progress of the folks at Aprovecho, that all they discovered is the pot gap, you have blinders on.
What did you discover, in 2 weeks in a mud puddle cabin, that Aprovecho did not learn in 10 years. I would like to read a few specifics instead of somewhat fuzzy claims of comfort.

You wrote..
<To encourage pushing the boundaries of what it is we think they can do and what it is we think they are for.>

BTW, what do you think rocket stoves can do, and what do you think they are for? No sarcasm here, I really want your opinion on this.

JP

[canyon]

Jp,
In describing rocket mass heaters to people unfamiliar I call them "poor man's masonry heaters" and I think it is pretty accurate. By creating more positive pressure with the heat riser you can go HORIZONTAL with benches and spread the weight out in a way that one can reinforce the structure affordably. It is a great savings over the major foundation required for a traditional vertical approach. Also, the heater can be made with locally available materials for cheap. I don't know of any that approach the average mass of masonry stoves (20 tons?) as I gather the average rocket mass heaters to have 3 to 6 tons. They can not be expected to provide any more storage than their mass. While I think they can be built for larger spaces with larger mass storage, the "normal" ones are for small spaces. I highly suggest you obtain and read Ianto Evans/ Leslie Jackson's book "Rocket Mass Heaters" as I think it might clear some of the details up for you. Thanks for being part of this forum.

[chronictom]

"Our approach was to certify the heater builder, so we developed a certification program complete with an educational program, including our heater builders manual, and final exam for the certification. "

Your own statement answers your own question... imagine that;

"I am curious though, who are the people, and where are the places that have mandated that you have to have a license to build a heater"


"like where I live in Maine the firebox needs to be larger, so more wood is consumed, more heat is produced, more channels are added to absorb more heat, the more it begins to look like what we call a masonry heater."

Or you find a way to burn the same amount of wood more efficiently. So that the same amount of wood puts out more heat, which also has the benefit of putting out less pollutants (something else that has been measured and those FACTS have been shared on this board).

"Have I missed a site that has some, or has anyone here got a infrared temp gun that they have been using?"

"I thought I asked a simple question, has anyone done any temp readings.
Why are you against a few FACTS to add to your opinions. I am not talking high tech specialized stuff. You can buy a simple infra red temp reader for under $100, some for much less."

There are multiple posts on this board alone about FACTS, including temperature readings... I suggest you read what is available before saying things aren't there...

Electrical codes... hmm, as I said in my previoes posts, codes that are in place for saftey reasons make sense... I also stated at the same time that codes these days do not reflect that anymore. You want to use electrical, okay smart guy, why does the code tell a person they MUST have a certain number of receptacles in a room? Before you jump and say, to keep people from overloading receptacles, keep in mind that most people here or who are interested in these types of things, do everything in their power to reduce their consumption of power. Imagine I went to get an electrical inspection done, and the inspector walked in and I didn't have the required number of receptacle in place, precisely because I only use the grid to charge a battery bank. I would have to tell the inspector that I am just getting it hooked up temporarily. Why? Because the code won't allow you to do otherwise. There are ZERO provisions for doing that... Why??? Because it has NOTHING to do with safety, and everything to do with forcing people to spend extra money, with the electrical company, the suppliers of equipment, and those contractors hired to install them. You seem fond of quoting your past experiences as some mantra... so let me join you on this... I have worked in every area of construction, I have built houses from scratch, I have done all the required work to be a licensed electrician (but choose not to participate in the licensing procedures), I have lived with wood heat for most of my life, I have flipped houses, as in buying houses, doing the work (without hiring contractors to do so), and sold them at a profit.

Of course what all this personal info has to do with the subject of heating and codes, I'm not sure, but if it makes you feel better to know, there ya go...

As for your comments which seem to indicate a disdain for canada... yes jp that is definately the way to have a conversation regarding stoves and codes, attack another country...

[larsmith]

Inquiring minds wanna know ... why is it that sooner or later, admin / forum owners ( etc ) will find themselves dealing with some of the baser attributes of humanity ... visa vie haughty / angry / disrespectful / snarky attitudes. We've got enough of such attitudinal displays on TV with all the political mud slinging ( etc ) going on ... we can do without it hear. If I wanted to see egos locking horns and inflicting personal injury, I could watch some wildlife show !!

We're not animals. Let's communicate with a little more humanity.

Enough already.