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Post by briank on Aug 15, 2017 17:36:17 GMT -8
I'll be at Paul Wheaton's rocket mass heater Jamboree in Montana in October for Part II of the Jamboree, October 9-12. I'll be bringing a prototype of a vacuum formed ceramic fiber rocket heater core to show anyone who might be interested what it looks like (it's just a little different than current tech) and how it's assembled and works. I think (hope?!) people will be pleasantly surprised by how simple and easy it is to assemble a 6" rocket heater based on this design as well as simplifying the creation of the manifold. I'm hoping to get some constructive feedback there prior to starting production. (I'll be driving out to Montana from here in PA in my little Nissan Versa Note with a little motorcycle trailer to haul stuff. I'll be alone and have never made this kind of cross country trip so it should be a real adventure.)
We've already submitted AutoCAD and technical drawings to three manufacturers of vacuum formed ceramic fiber shapes to get an idea of tooling/mold costs up front (which we anticipate to be in the thousands of dollars) as well as per unit costs once production begins. We start filming a Kickstarter campaign video on Monday with a friend who is a good professional videographer to raise capital for tooling/molding expenses up front.
I don't have any hard cost estimates yet, but the good news is that, based on preliminary conversations with all three companies these should be relatively affordable and within the range I had hoped. Plus they've been very helpful with ideas for design relating to eventual production. We'll know more soon enough about projected costs.
A couple of the companies want us to consider other refractory possibilities so I don't know yet if this will be made entirely of ceramic fiber or something else entirely, or a combination of different highly insulating and high temp materials.
I'll post updates as we progress this fall.
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Post by ericvw on Aug 15, 2017 17:57:18 GMT -8
Anxious to read of your upcoming success Brian!  |
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Post by pigbuttons on Aug 16, 2017 18:53:43 GMT -8
Wow! The trip and the product both sound ambitious. Wishing you good success with both and looking forward to updates as they are available.
Some advise on the trip; States get bigger the farther West you go. Steel your mind for hours of painful boredom once you leave the Appalachain foot hills until you get in sight of the Rockies. Kansas, Nebraska, Missouri, etc will be a challenge. Don't take it lightly, take plenty of breaks, and give yourself enough time to make it without rushing, especially since you'll be by yourself.
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Post by briank on Aug 16, 2017 19:58:44 GMT -8
Wow! The trip and the product both sound ambitious. Wishing you good success with both and looking forward to updates as they are available. Some advise on the trip; States get bigger the farther West you go. Steel your mind for hours of painful boredom once you leave the Appalachain foot hills until you get in sight of the Rockies. Kansas, Nebraska, Missouri, etc will be a challenge. Don't take it lightly, take plenty of breaks, and give yourself enough time to make it without rushing, especially since you'll be by yourself. Thanks, good advice. I'm figuring covering 550-600 miles per day, taking it easy with 4 days out and 4 days back. I plan on visiting Mount Rushmore on the way out, and Yellowstone on the trip back. |
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Post by peterberg on Aug 17, 2017 0:10:36 GMT -8
Brian, is it a J-core or a batch box? I think it need to be assembled as you mention that in your start post, so it isn't in one piece. Provided it is rugged enough, it would be close to the ideal because of the low weight. And it insulates very nice, I am accustomed to the stuff, I have a riser here which contains a percentage of high temperature clay. This made it hard but brittle once it's fired, I am curious how yours looks like and behaves in use.
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Post by briank on Aug 17, 2017 5:09:40 GMT -8
Brian, is it a J-core or a batch box? I think it need to be assembled as you mention that in your start post, so it isn't in one piece. Provided it is rugged enough, it would be close to the ideal because of the low weight. And it insulates very nice, I am accustomed to the stuff, I have a riser here which contains a percentage of high temperature clay. This made it hard but brittle once it's fired, I am curious how yours looks like and behaves in use. It's a 6" batch box system and the firebox will be lined with fire brick to protect the vacuum formed ceramic fiber shape. (Although we're considering making the firebox separately and out of a much more dense material that wouldn't need to be lined. It depends on what we hear back from the different manufacturers.) So its either going to be 2 or 3 pieces. I think I read that you'll be at Paul Wheaton's rocket stove Jamboree? If so I look forward to meeting you personally, and would truly appreciate your feedback on the design once you see it in person. We'll probably launch our Kickstarter campaign around or before the start of the Jamboree so people can see our design. |
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Post by peterberg on Aug 17, 2017 7:21:14 GMT -8
Yes, ice and weather permitting, I'll be there. My health is a little bit flakey on and off lately, but I think I can make it. Looking forward to shake hands with you and discuss the pros and cons which will be there almost inevitably. The market for rocket heater cores isn't large as Dragon Heaters showed us the past 7? years. What you are trying to do is a very technical and industrial solution, which could become cheaper in larger numbers due to initial tooling costs.
Main considerations are price first and weight next because of transportation costs. But as long as the design isn't compromised it will run like mad, is it an option to let Ernie have his way with it? He's a firm advocate of "testing until it breaks" which might be not pleasant for you because it's your first prototype...
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Post by briank on Aug 17, 2017 7:48:50 GMT -8
Yes, ice and weather permitting, I'll be there. My health is a little bit flakey on and off lately, but I think I can make it. Looking forward to shake hands with you and discuss the pros and cons which will be there almost inevitably. The market for rocket heater cores isn't large as Dragon Heaters showed us the past 7? years. What you are trying to do is a very technical and industrial solution, which could become cheaper in larger numbers due to initial tooling costs. Main considerations are price first and weight next because of transportation costs. But as long as the design isn't compromised it will run like mad, is it an option to let Ernie have his way with it? He's a firm advocate of "testing until it breaks" which might be not pleasant for you because it's your first prototype... Great, I look forward to meeting you there if you're able to make it. Yes, I'd be glad to let him test it all he wants, as long as his goal isn't to deliberately abuse and break it. This prototype won't be designed for the rigors of long term use but simply to prove the concept. (Actually this is the second prototype. The first crude prototype was here but now we're using it to test various internal designs and secondary air delivery.) I'm building it out of layers of various thicknesses of 2300 degree F ceramic fiber board, cut into the 3D configuration of the design, glued together with ceramic cement, and rigidized with a diluted solution of same (which is all the rigidizer is anyhow.) The firebox will be lined with fire brick splits but the production version will have a layer of metal separating the fire brick from the vacuum formed ceramic fiber shape. If I have time, I'm going to include an 18g version of same in this prototype. Production models will employ 2600 degree F ceramic fiber. As far as limited market, that's why I'm marketing this as a kit so individuals can put together their own backyard or deck or patio combination heater, cook top and pizza oven. The market for deck heaters and pizza ovens is huge compared to rocket heaters. If I can effectively target that market, I can then use the capital to further develop a dedicated household wood fired rocket heater with this core. It will be easy to tie in an " Ugly Drum Smoker" so I can also target the BBQ/smoker crowd with an environmentally clean alternative to charcoal grills. The " Ugly drum smoker" would effectively double as a second bell if lined with brick to hold up a grill insert. In recent years the EPA has been raising back yard charcoal grilling as an environmental hazard. This type of stove, using compressed sawdust firewood logs, would be a very clean, green alternative using recycled waste (sawdust) as a fuel with very little release of smoke, i.e., volatiles or particulates. I'm shooting to keep this rocket heater core kit under $600 and if its all vacuum formed ceramic fiber, shipping weight should be well under UPS limits, so it could ship via UPS instead of freight. The consumer would buy their fire brick splits and a couple other items locally or via the internet, and detailed instructions on assembly will be provided. Since its being marketed as an outdoor appliance, UL and local building ordinances wouldn't apply. But it should be relatively easy to incorporate this core into a "masonry stove." (And I can understand the health concerns. I had 4 strokes in March 2016 that left me paralyzed in the left arm and leg (and is the reason it still takes me multiple edits to find typos and complete my thoughts!), and I had to retire my license as a Podiatrist. I gave away my practice of 21 years, and the bank took back our house. This effort is to reestablish my life and an income. I've recovered physically remarkably well, lost 75 pounds, and am in better shape now than most of my adult life.) |
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Post by briank on Aug 28, 2017 16:22:06 GMT -8
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Post by briank on Aug 28, 2017 17:58:00 GMT -8
I'm trying to create a kit that uses all off the shelf parts and simple tools from Harbor Freight (Angle grinder, rivnut kit, metal bender) and a barrel stove kit that just about anyone with a little mechanical ability can put together in a weekend. A second barrel (bell) can be attached with the USSC stacking barrel stove kit pretty easily.  Mock up:   |
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Post by briank on Sept 2, 2017 17:55:41 GMT -8
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Post by briank on Sept 2, 2017 17:57:26 GMT -8
Now I just need to surround the firebox in sheet metal and line it with firebrick, insert the secondary air assembly in front of the port, hang the door and mount the flue collar manifold. I hope it's obvious that this is a full powered self contained 6" unit, and a second barrel could easily be mounted on top the first and the exhaust stream can simply be routed through a bell or a bench (or in this case, my plan is a second 55 gallon barrel lined with red brick to serve as a masonry bell but designed to also function as a BBQ.)
I weighed everything today. With heavy coats of rigidizer the left semicircle part weighs 20lbs, the right firebox weighs 30lbs, the cut out barrel 40lbs, and the barrel stove kit cast iron parts 20lbs. Sheet metal around the firebox might be another 5-10lbs. So 120lbs is a good total estimate, not including the firebrick to line the firebox.
The ceramic cement, diluted with water and applied as rigidizer in pancake batter consistency with a foam paint brush, set up and hardened better than I thought it would. Firebox has 2 coats. It doesn't make it really hard but I'm not afraid to handle it now and no particles of ceramic fiber board can be easily broken off with a fingernail now.
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Post by pigbuttons on Sept 2, 2017 19:54:47 GMT -8
Nice looking rig Brian. Thanks for keeping us updated.
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Post by jkirk3279 on Sept 4, 2017 17:32:05 GMT -8
This is really creative, Brian.
You start with your ceramic fiber layer cake and THEN adapt the steel barrel to it.
I was trying to visualize from the opposite end and it was ...difficult.
The ceramic riser though.
You have no other support for it?
Or is there a collar and brace coming?
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Post by briank on Sept 5, 2017 4:43:34 GMT -8
This is really creative, Brian. You start with your ceramic fiber layer cake and THEN adapt the steel barrel to it. I was trying to visualize from the opposite end and it was ...difficult. The ceramic riser though. You have no other support for it? Or is there a collar and brace coming? It fits snugly inside a 1" deep groove in the top of the left semicircular half of the riser. And there's a 1" shiplap joint on top to keep the two halves sealed.   |
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