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Post by peterberg on May 10, 2016 13:13:48 GMT -8
I mean, I can tell you right now I would balk at building something that complex, and I do consider myself pretty handy. At the very least I would be doing many many trials with plain old concrete to work out the bugs in putting it together! The first heater outer skin similar to this one I built as long ago as the second half of the nineteen eighties. I pondered for weeks about it, scribbled on pieces of paper and at some point suddenly I saw how it could be done. In the following week I made the first master mold in my spare time and after that I spent another month to get the silicon rubber production mold right. I kept the master positives, they are still in my workshop. Doing design work like this is much easier now with 3D drawing programs, at the time my brain happened to be more flexible so I could do the assembling and so forth in my head. I tried downloading the sketchup file, but I don't have the required version so could not view it. Can I ask, is that detail you posted readily seen in the sketchup, or did you specifically have to 'make it happen' for the post? If that detail is readily available in the download, we can take advantage of that to help clean this up. All the details showed are in the drawing, I spent most of the day to amend it. It is called bell7a.skp now and is almost exactly like the real thing. At the end of the article I mentioned the drawing is updated. When you want to see it all, the bigger parts are grouped so the whole thing can be taken apart piece by piece. As this is (presumably) your 'best, most preferred' expression of all you have learned about rocket stoves is it fair to conclude that this is the most efficient design? I ask because you have had quite a few explorations paths, including the siphon from way back when. One would presume if the siphon provided better performance you would have built it, so what were/are you final conclusions about the relative merits of this 'style' versus any of the others you have threads about? Yes, it is the most efficient design, in more than one aspect and also the cleanest burning device to date. My syphon construction could run also very, very clean but no more than 25% of the burn. But... the red bell is like a race horse, very fast but a tad nervous. But hey, there's still room for improvement so I can keep working on it! And yes, there's a saying in my country, very similar like the Chinese express it. "One picture is (often) better than 1000 words." I will do the rest of the housework tomorrow. |
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Post by peterberg on May 11, 2016 5:02:04 GMT -8
OK, I did the housekeeping and added a picture. The one that explained the front support of the firebox in the inner skin. Would you be so kind to check the whole article again Terry, my feeling is that it should be a comprehensive story now.
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terry
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Post by terry on May 11, 2016 12:23:07 GMT -8
'The top part locks into the locating locating lugs seen below.' duplicate
'The finished external dimensions of the heater are 98 x 98 x 210 cm (3.22" x 3.22" x 82.7"), and all up it weighs in at a little more than 2000 kg (2.2 US tons).' This sentence, where it appears, kinda breaks the flow of discussion. We have started on describing the inner bell and how it is put together, this suddenly appears as the first sentence of a new para, then straight back into the description of building the inner bell.
How about it simply gets moved up to the top of the section, and as such is part of the description of this build?
'This is a batch rocket variant designed and built in 2015, consisting entirely of cast refractory parts. In such a project the financial investment in molds is very high. So much thought was put into devising a way to use as few unique parts as possible, thereby cutting down on the number of unique molds. As can be seen there are just a few parts repeated many times, the same few molds being used over and over as required.
The finished external dimensions of the heater are 98 x 98 x 210 cm (3.22" x 3.22" x 82.7"), and all up it weighs in at a little more than 2000 kg (2.2 US tons).'
The description then flows better, we have just talked about the tongue and grooves, then with that sentence gone we continue on with the layers.
'The left and right sides of the inner skin's opening are chamfered at a 45 degrees angle in order to obain space for a wider door and a better view of the fire. The detail about fixing the outer skin in the U shaped steel is clearly seen in the picture above. The next photo shows how the outer skin is assembled. There's also a superwool seal between the door frame and the inner skin, as is visible as a white line in the photograph.' typo...obtain With the new sketchup drawing inserted, I think (?) the actual photo has moved, ie it is now below the words. Both show what we are talking about tho, so maybe change it to ''''' clearly seen in the drawing above and picture below.'''
I agree, think that reads and flows pretty well now. BUT, what we both can't determine is whether that is because WE know exactly what we meant and so makes sense to us when we read it hahaha. Would be good if we had someone completely new read it and see if it works for them. Still, this always applies to anything we write so feedback over time might draw anything remaining out.
Nothing jumps out at me screaming a need for correction now, reckon we are damned close if not actually there. Phew, took a bit of work but having patience on both sides, and willingness to communicate got us through. Good work partner!
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Post by peterberg on May 11, 2016 13:10:10 GMT -8
OK, hopefully the last corrections to the red bell article are done. This happened to be a tough one but I think you are right, it is good work.
I started to do the next one, lots of photos but very little text which isn't mine. This could take probably more than a couple of days before I am ready to translate it into English. So you'd better put your feet up for the moment and relax.
Thanks.
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Post by peterberg on May 18, 2016 7:55:51 GMT -8
Terry, would you please be so kind to have a look at the new article?
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terry
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Post by terry on May 18, 2016 11:46:40 GMT -8
sure, will have at least something tomorrow. Very impressive, lots of good workmanship and innovation is on display in this entire section. Needs a bit of a clean up, but my own thoughts on the matter are that we probably do not need to dig in as deeply on this one as the others. The main reason being that this one IS probably 'just for show', in other words it is getting far outside the skills of a 'competent home DIY handyman' which I think was the benchmark we set. Or alternatively, if the work that could not be done was farmed out to the professionals, the costs would skyrocket. And lastly, unlike the others described (which are complete 'end products') this is but one small part of an entire system, most of which is not described.
So yes, very impressive and undoubtedly very interesting (I myself have a few questions so watch out for them) but more, I think, to again illustrate how far you can go with skills and imagination.
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terry
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Post by terry on May 19, 2016 0:16:08 GMT -8
'The design lined out here is made and built by by Rémy Bakker, living in north of Limburg, Netherlands. He lives in the vicinity of the Reichswald in Germany, his nickname is "Holtere".' outlined. By the way, is there a meaning to holtere?? "Our heater isn't situated in the house centrally and we need quite a lot of heat for the in-floor heating of the rest of the house outside the living room. In fact, the living room is throroughly insulated and is a recently built annex to the 1920-ish house. A warm water appliance could be incorpaorated so this is how the choice for a central heating boiler was made. Connected to a couple of large solar water heater collectors and a similar sized storage of 1000 liter (35 cu ft)." The pump starts running when the water temperature in the exchangers is over 75 degrees Celsius (167 F). I'm beginning to suspect you use google translate! haha  thoroughly incorporated Maybe 'Our heater is not centrally located within the house' and maybe 'outside of the living room' 'RBB wood heater for an unpressurized system.' I have absolutely no idea what an RBB is. Batch box?? but what is the R? 'Heat release to the room estimated 2 to 4 kWh (6820 Btu up to 13600 Btu) maximum.' 6 kg in 45 mins, only 4 kw in an hour? Is that right? Seems low, but I could very well be wrong. 'The side panels are heated up to 60 up to 75 degrees Celsius (140 F up to 167 F), the same as the water temperature, the rear wall a bit warmer. The front, together with the door becomes hotter, especially the top half (maximum 180 degrees C (356 F)). This could be lowered when the inside is insulated.' Should that read 'warms to between 60 and 75 degrees'? (or heated) 'The heater is able to heat the water storage up to 75 degrees Celsius (167 F). When the return temperature is getting higher than that, firing it should be deminished because of boiling noises in the exchangers.' diminished The water storage spoken of here is presumably the 1000 litre tank? All of this is 'manually controlled'?, meaning it is possible to actually boil the water if firing was continued? Not that this is part of your site, a question I have myself. The LEAST of the reasons to ensure the water does not boil would be 'boiling' noises!! 'In order to give the exchangers more volume, there's a choice to make it wider and with fewer fire tubes. For example with 11 fire tubes instead of 12 in this implementation. The sides of the exchangers inside the heater could be insulated, as it is now the water is heated up from two sides. More volume means it will take more time to get the water to boiling point.' This is confusing. And, a quick glance at the rest of the photos does not really answer the questions. So the tubes are fire tubes, and also he is talking about 'two sides'. SOoo, I am presuming (although the pictures do not clearly show it) that some of the exhaust gases pass thru the fire tubes, and some of the exhaust gases fill that (what looks to be) big void in the middle? That is the only way I can account for fire tubes as well as 'two sides'. What seems to be missing picture wise (which are worth a thousand words remember!) is the top of the unit, and how the exhaust gases flow as a result. BUT is any of this actually needed?? I am presuming that there is no real expectation that anyone else will duplicate this build and this application (and far more data or instruction would be needed if indeed that was assumed) so is this merely showing a new, different application? If so, then a few photos and simple descriptions would suffice, we don't need to know how many fire tubes etc can be incorporated. I will wait till I get your thoughts on that, I am happy to work with you on this if you feel it needed, right now I get the idea it is 'cut and paste' from another forum (which would be curious about these details) but yet somehow does not fit in with what you want from your site? Actually, a quick glance ahead shows it continues in this vein, 'cut and paste' from a forum post. In that context, perfectly acceptable and reads like a diary. Is that what you want here?? For what it is worth, and as always ignore it if it does not work for you, it is neither fish nor fowl as it stands. If it is an illustration, great a few photos and basic description is fine. It most certainly is not a 'how to', so some of the descriptions/wording seems unnecessary. It kinda falls between two stools, neither one or the other. Have a think, let me know which way you want to go, happy to work with you on it. |
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Post by peterberg on May 19, 2016 2:24:18 GMT -8
By the way, is there a meaning to holtere?? Yes, I added that just now to the site. I have absolutely no idea what an RBB is. Batch box?? but what is the R? BBR stands for Batch Box Rocket, but there's a song in Dutch which says Brown Beans and Rice for the same acronym. So some guy in the Netherlands preferred to use the acronym RBB which is Rocket Batch Box. And other people adapted that. By the way, it is mentioned in the Introduction. 'Heat release to the room estimated 2 to 4 kWh (6820 Btu up to 13600 Btu) maximum.' 6 kg in 45 mins, only 4 kw in an hour? Is that right? Seems low, but I could very well be wrong. Yes, this is right, so I changed that to "directly to the room", the rest is going to the 1000 liter storage. The water storage spoken of here is presumably the 1000 litre tank? All of this is 'manually controlled'?, meaning it is possible to actually boil the water if firing was continued? Not that this is part of your site, a question I have myself. The LEAST of the reasons to ensure the water does not boil would be 'boiling' noises!! The circulation pump is automatic, boiling noises aren't uncommon in unpressurized systems. 'In order to give the exchangers more volume, there's a choice to make it wider and with fewer fire tubes. For example with 11 fire tubes instead of 12 in this implementation. The sides of the exchangers inside the heater could be insulated, as it is now the water is heated up from two sides. More volume means it will take more time to get the water to boiling point.' This is confusing. And, a quick glance at the rest of the photos does not really answer the questions. So the tubes are fire tubes, and also he is talking about 'two sides'. SOoo, I am presuming (although the pictures do not clearly show it) that some of the exhaust gases pass thru the fire tubes, and some of the exhaust gases fill that (what looks to be) big void in the middle? That is the only way I can account for fire tubes as well as 'two sides'. What seems to be missing picture wise (which are worth a thousand words remember!) is the top of the unit, and how the exhaust gases flow as a result. There are 12 firetubes on each side. This could be 11, with a wider panel to get more water volume in the exchangers. The photo further down the article is there to show how the thing is constructed, not the final product. The water is all around the tubes and inside the panel. The inside of the heater higher than the firebox is hollow with both panels as the sidewalls. So the exchanger panels will become hot from the inside of the heater as well as the inside of the tubes. All of the exhaust gases pass through the exchangers, there's no other open route. I am presuming that there is no real expectation that anyone else will duplicate this build and this application (and far more data or instruction would be needed if indeed that was assumed) so is this merely showing a new, different application? If so, then a few photos and simple descriptions would suffice, we don't need to know how many fire tubes etc can be incorporated. I think you are right here, this isn't my build. The guy who built it provided me with the text and the pictures and that's it. As such, the bulk of the text is derived from a forum, yes. Maybe we have to skip some of the text where it is confusing. Actually, a quick glance ahead shows it continues in this vein, 'cut and paste' from a forum post. In that context, perfectly acceptable and reads like a diary. Is that what you want here?? It couldn't be anything else, so I think you are right, the text is only there to explain the photos. |
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terry
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Post by terry on May 19, 2016 13:50:08 GMT -8
Holtere, good. The clue was your use of the word nickname, otherwise it would just be a forum name which often has no meaning at all.
Often the noisiest part of boiling a kettle is well before the actual boil, so yes I am aware (esp as it is in the living room itself) that noises like that could be annoying. I also realise the circulating pump itself would be automatically controlled, I was more 'worried' about the burn being manually controlled. Maybe not worried, but curious. For example, looking at the air inlet flap it looks like it stays open by gravity, which is always 'fully on'. The alternative would be held open (electrically say) so if power fails, then it will close, shutting down the fire. Put a full load in, go to bed, power fails so the pump stops, no water circulates thru the system so heats up locally in the RBB which is situated in the living room, the air flap stays open, possible kaboom.
I am not doubting HIM, he obviously (or seems to) know what he is doing and accepts all of the risks, it is the idiot who does not know what he is doing that I worry about, even if only to cover your own arse. And I never cease to be amazed at the stupidity of people.
Can I suggest you make a cover note in the introduction that this is for illustrative purposes only, that a system as complex as this should only be undertaken by those competent to do so?
Looking more closely at the pictures I can see now that the only exit path for the gases are thru the fire tubes, that 'large empty internal space' is exactly that. I guess it serves as a fly ash trap tho. But that leaves me with the 'heated from two sides' bit. I guess there will be heat in that cavity, maybe that is what is meant.
'The side panels are heated to between 60 and 75 degrees Celsius (140 F and 167 F), the same as the water temperature, the rear wall a bit warmer. The front, together with the door becomes hotter, especially the top half (maximum 180 degrees C (356 F)). This could be lowered when the inside is insulated.' Second parenthesis.
'The heater is able to heat the 1000 liter (35 cu ft) water storage up to 75 degrees Celsius (167 F). When the return temperature is getting higher than that, firing it should be deminished because of boiling noises in the exchangers.' typo. How about 'When the return temp rises past 75 degrees, firing should be reduced to prevent boiling noises and for safety reasons' or similar.
'The lower part of the heater is made out of stainless steel because of condensation fluid, which is acidic and could cause corrosion. There's no drain for condensation fluid but this could be done later eventually.' Out of curiosity, what is the rest of the system made of? It *looks* all the same, but this suggests otherwise.
'The size of the heat exchangers is 99 x 75 x 7.5 cm (39" x 29.5" x 3"). Each of them contains 12 fire tubes sized 48 mm diameter x 2 mm thickness. At the bottom end the tubes are sticking out slightly, to encourage condensation fluid to drip down. The exhaust gases of 900 Celsius (1160 F) from the rocket core stream down through the fire tubes. The water, contained in the panel around the tubes streams from the bottom up. Inside the panel, around the tubes are three separator baffles which are forcing the water to go a more convoluted path instead of straight up.' probably not needed, just leave it out.
'The riser parts are glued together with stove caulk and secured with welding wire. In order to get a coherent object the ends are mounted alternatingly so a running bond is obtained.' A bit clunky, how about 'To help maintain strength the joins are staggered, so achieving a running bond' or similar.
'The riser as a whole is secured and insulated around with a mix of vermiculite and clay.' Don't think it is needed, makes it awkward. Just leave it out.
'The sides of the firebox are insulated also with a layer of superwool. This is done to prevent the firebox from losing too much heat to the exchangers. This way the temperature of the firebox will remain higher which is beneficial to combustion.' Maybe the last sentence could reinforce everything you have stated on this site, like 'As always in rocket heaters we lose as little heat as possible from the combustion itself which is an essential part of their efficient operation' or somesuch. Or not, it just reads a little funny is all.
'The picture above shows clearly the position of the second P-channel. In a later stage it is clad with vermiculiet board, it serves as a lid on the ash drawer as well.' typo
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Post by peterberg on May 20, 2016 2:38:04 GMT -8
Added the cover note in the introduction to this heater. ?The second closing parenthesis (what a lovely word!) is there because there are also two opening ones. Is that not done in English writing? Added a note about the reason why the exchangers could do with more volume. All the plate work is stainless, the L and T profiles are carbon steel as I understand it. I was looking for a word like "staggered" but couldn't remember. Now it is there alright. And replaced the sentence about keeping heat in the combustion zone. I tried to contact the guy who built this heater to include an article on the site but he didn't answer yet. donkey32.proboards.com/thread/1708/pizza-oven-pool-heater-buildThis would be particularly nice because it incorporates a pizza oven and a pool heater. TomDS, when you read this, could you answer please? |
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terry
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Post by terry on May 20, 2016 14:03:30 GMT -8
Added the cover note in the introduction to this heater. ?The second closing parenthesis (what a lovely word!) is there because there are also two opening ones. Is that not done in English writing? Added a note about the reason why the exchangers could do with more volume. All the plate work is stainless, the L and T profiles are carbon steel as I understand it. I was looking for a word like "staggered" but couldn't remember. Now it is there alright. And replaced the sentence about keeping heat in the combustion zone. I tried to contact the guy who built this heater to include an article on the site but he didn't answer yet. donkey32.proboards.com/thread/1708/pizza-oven-pool-heater-buildThis would be particularly nice because it incorporates a pizza oven and a pool heater. TomDS, when you read this, could you answer please? I once worked out how to break up these into separate quotes, don't feel up to the task this morning! So it is one big lump. Sorry. Yes, we can and do have double parentheses if needed, and for exactly the same reasons as you stated. 'The side panels are heated to between 60 and 75 degrees Celsius (140 F and 167 F), the same as the water temperature, the rear wall a bit warmer. The front, together with the door becomes hotter, especially the top half (maximum 180 degrees C (356 F)). This could be lowered when the inside is insulated.' It is just that some people are idiots ok? If you agree, I think it is a tad clearer (now that I have read it again) if it is changed to 'Externally, the sides get to between.....' I think that puts it 'more into the living space' and what you live with. Dunno, maybe you think it fine as is. Yes, that note about extra volume kinda makes sense, I mean that bit about less tubes etc earlier kinda came out of the blue, now I see why it was there originally. 'Unpressurized systems are more prone to boiling noises as compared to pressurized systems whereby the boiling temperature can be as high as 125 Celsius (257 F). The large side panels of this heater can't tolerate pressure without buckling so pressure is not done here.' just 'where' Second sentence 'The large side panels of this heater are not designed to tolerate more than 'normal' pressures, so this system operates at normal atmospheric pressures.' Or something like that, 'pressure is not done here' is very awkward. If they don't understand it not being a 'pressure vessel' then it is covered by your introductory warning. 'The lower part of the heater is made out of stainless steel because of condensation fluid, which is acidic and could cause corrosion. There's no drain for condensation fluid but this could be done later eventually.' Not needed, covered with 'later'. Effectively using the same word twice in a row. ' Inside the panel, around the tubes are three separator baffles which are forcing the water to go a more convoluted path instead of straight up.' (In conjunction with the earlier words) I suggest 'Internally there are baffle plates that force the water to take a more circuitous path on its way up through the panel.' Maybe you are interested in 'why' these little changes, maybe you are not. You would not really say 'which are forcing'...tho it would be understood, you'd simply say 'which forces'. Convoluted, although it works and would be understood, is not the most suitable word for use here. Longer would be a good swap, as was circuitous. Anyways, maybe you are not that interested but just understand it was not really wrong, just very obviously 'translated' or 'from a non native speaker'. OTOH some of what I write probably sounds like 'from a wanker' haha, so swings and roundabouts really. 'The sides of the firebox are insulated also with a layer of superwool. This is done to prevent the firebox from losing too much heat to the exchangers. As always in rocket heaters we lose as little heat as possible from the combustion itself which is an essential part of their efficient operation.' Not really needed, if you did want it in there put it before the word insulated. 'The picture above shows clearly the position of the second P-channel. In a later stage it is clad with vermiculite board, it serves as a lid on the ash drawer as well.' That is fair enough, my only problem is I cannot clearly see the FIRST P channel! I presume it is behind the primary air intake but....that cannot be right because I can see the hinges for the door so it IS the one behind the air inlet. Just above there is a picture which shows a P channel clearly above any hinges, so i think a description has been attached to a wrong picture. Unless it is the second, and the other is the first. Then again, maybe it is only me that 'cares'. In any case, I think those last little changes are all that will be required. (I reserve the right to contradict myself after reading it post changes, sometimes things only jump out after previous corrections are made), but then again this is not 'important' enough to spend much time on. Illustrative purposes only. |
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Post by peterberg on May 21, 2016 23:51:13 GMT -8
Housework is done, thanks Terry.
When you see more niggles, just let me know.
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terry
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Post by terry on May 23, 2016 12:05:44 GMT -8
Housework is done, thanks Terry. When you see more niggles, just let me know. at some stage we will need to revisit the first few chapters. I think in the beginning I was a little hesitant and limited it to the obvious spelling mistakes. Since then we have found our common ground so any hesitancy has gone. I always intended to go back, and after re-reading it I think it necessary. Just out of curiosity, what data/chapters/extra do you envisage still to come? |
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Post by peterberg on May 23, 2016 13:04:13 GMT -8
There's already a new one, pizza oven / pool warmer. See for yourself, just a couple of hours ago, ink still wet, in English only as yet so it will take a couple of days to translate this back to Dutch.
When that's done maybe a small batch box in a 55 gallon barrel. There's another one at the back of my mind but can't remember at the moment. Probably a good night sleep will bring that back.
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terry
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Post by terry on May 23, 2016 13:30:32 GMT -8
yes, I saw that build, first glance showed not an awful lot to correct english/grammar wise. I DO have some questions about it tho, so we'll see.
I can't remember what I had listed in my post on 'thoughts to be covered', so maybe I am repeating myself here.
(To my mind) still to be covered is bell sizings. How to figure that out, maybe a little bit of illustration on how to reduce footprint of the bell without sacrificing mass etc.
And, if you are knowledgeable enough in the area, I (at least) would find it interesting to see how rockets perform emission wise against the different standards in europe or america. You could probably relate that back to testo readings and how it all works. It might be that Erica has made numerous posts like that?? If so perhaps with her permission you could copy and paste. She has a good way with words, and very helpful explanations.
I mean if you intend to show how rockets compare in all the different facets, data like that (in a specially written section rather than 'spread out everywhere') is more than interesting.
I am sure there were more point in my 'must remember' post, so I doubt I am repeating myself thankfully.
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thoroughly incorporated Maybe 'Our heater is not centrally located within the house' and maybe 'outside of the living room'