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Post by wrekinwanderer on Mar 3, 2014 14:40:39 GMT -8
I've been really enjoying the posts on cooking ranges that have been popping up, thank you all! The discussions so far seem to be largely based around white ovens. What about black ovens? Here's a great link to a rocket powered black oven: permaculturenews.org/2012/11/08/rocket-oven-nitty-gritty/I would be really interested in knowing your thoughts and feelings for and against black and white ovens.... And while we're on the subject of ovens. Clearly high mass ovens will take longer to heat up and then retain more heat, while low mass will come up to temperature quickly and then lose heat fast. I was wondering whether a cast iron box would be the perfect oven? Doesn't take too long to heat up and retains heat well. Endrunner - how long does your brick oven take to heat up? |
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Post by wrekinwanderer on Mar 3, 2014 14:48:00 GMT -8
Now, one for all you guys on the other side of the pond. For me the perfect oven has to be something like that in the old Chambers cookstove oven.
Now, I'm not entirely sure as only heard about these great ranges. But got some great baffling going on so that they are heated up for about 15mins and then just the stored heat finishes off the roasting/baking. Sounds good to me!
Anyone know how it's done?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2014 4:05:06 GMT -8
Rocket powered ovens are "white ovens" Black oven: The fire is inside the oven chamber. White oven: The fire is in a firebox that vents into the oven. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masonry_oven |
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Post by Daryl on Mar 4, 2014 5:56:49 GMT -8
This decision is all up to the personal preference of the individual. I prefer cooking with mass. My experience is with clay brick black ovens. Love 'em. The heat retention is crazy good. I have used the brick ovens for smoking and baking.
I smoked a couple ribs in a portable grill recently. I am considering throwing bricks in the next time. This has been done by youtube posters. I am interested in seeing how much difference a little clay makes.
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Post by satamax on Mar 4, 2014 9:23:03 GMT -8
Rocket powered ovens are "white ovens" Black oven: The fire is inside the oven chamber. White oven: The fire is in a firebox that vents into the oven. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masonry_ovenKarl, i'm pretty sure i've seen at least one or two black ovens made with rockets. You don't remember that one, dome shaped thing made of clay, with a downwards feed like a pocket rocket and an insulated chimney on the other side? |
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Post by ronyon on Mar 4, 2014 12:50:25 GMT -8
I have a Chambers oven that came with the house, along with the original promotional materials. The selling point
was the insulation, which allowed the efficiency you noted.
It also gets at least 100 degrees hotter than the 550F marked on the oven controls!
In my opinion, a white oven keeps all exhaust separate from the cooking area, allowing only the heat to penetrate.
Inspired by a portable propane fired pizza oven crafted from a scrapped wall oven, I wondered if a rocket could rehabilitate a conventional oven, only to find that it had been done (same thing that SataMax posted).
At this point I have a core that needs firing, and the scrapped wall oven.
I am wondering if I should upgrade the insulation, but that can wait till I build the oven!
The creator of the rocket oven posted above points out that high mass mass stoves are traditionally used to bake for a community, as the take a lot of fuel to heat, and stay hot a long time.
Most of us don't cook for masses of people, so a j tube powered oven fits better.
Personally I plan on using dense firebrick as a deflector for the exhaust, so a little bit of mass.
Lots of home bakers do the same with thier conventional ovens.
I currently bake my no knead bread in old crocks from electric crockpots, for a ceramic steam oven effect.
I look forward to expirimenting with diy misters in the rocket oven.
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Post by wrekinwanderer on Mar 4, 2014 15:17:47 GMT -8
Here is some blurb about the Chambers oven - in my eyes it has to tbe the perfect oven and well worth replicating. www.chamberstoves.net/Features.html"ALL of the CHAMBERS Ranges have an oven that is entirely insulated - top, bottom, sides, and front (door) with the best grade rock wool. This insulation is encased (sealed). The oven also has a cast iron bottom (floor) called a baffle, which rests above the burner and distributes the heat extremely evenly... To insulate completely, triple oven wall construction is necessary.. The CHAMBERS Oven is ventilated by a system of controls and dampers, a patented feature that provides for perfect circulation of FRESH AIR while the gas burns. Then, when you turn off the gas the Oven is automatically sealed up for continued cooking on retained heat... Because they are so well insulated, it is not necessary to burn the gas until your food is done: you turn it on (per the instructions), let it preheat for 10 minutes, put your food in (be it a roaster, casserole, pies, cakes, etc.), then continue burning the gas for the amount of minutes designated on the cooking chart... Once that time has elapsed, you turn the gas OFF, sealing the oven compartment entirely from the outside world... Your food continues to cook on retained heat until it is done. There is no scorching, no burning, and you use 1/3 - 1/2 less gas than standard ovens do... " |
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Post by satamax on Mar 4, 2014 22:13:37 GMT -8
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2014 0:48:04 GMT -8
Karl, i'm pretty sure i've seen at least one or two black ovens made with rockets. "White" simply means that the firebox is separate from the baking chamber, and the fire can be going while the oven is in use. brickovendiaries.wordpress.com/2011/04/01/initial-white-oven-design-for-mobile-truck/spbc.info/quest/types.htmlThe flue does not need to be routed around the chamber to make it a white one. Once you have posted a movie from a huge french bread oven. The chamber was apparently "white" with no visible soot, despite the flue vented into the chamber. Ovens with a flue path around the chamber are typicaly part of multi use stoves like mansonry stoves for heating or or kitchen stoves which serve for heating cooking and baking, far to inefficient for baking alone. Though an uncle with a master's certificate as baker and confectioner told me that more than 50 years ago the oven in the bakery used heat pipes to route the heat from the fire inside the chamber to avoid venting the flue into the chamber, but still keep it efficient. |
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Post by wrekinwanderer on Mar 5, 2014 2:04:02 GMT -8
Interesting Karl, because all the previous definitions I have seen the white v black argument has purely been whether gases are routed through the oven or not....
For me a highly insulated oven is possible when the flue gases are routed through the chamber as the oven can be directly insulated like the Chambers.
Of course, inside a bell constructed of firebricks it will also stay warm, but heat from the fire will be going to heat the bricks as well as the food in the oven, so therefore probably less efficient. Am I right in thinking if the bell was insulated then it would lose heat much faster and so the oven would cool down...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2014 3:27:14 GMT -8
Interesting Karl, because all the previous definitions I have seen the white v black argument has purely been whether gases are routed through the oven or not.... "White" means in an oven just no soot in the baking chamber. Some people like to be more Catholic than the Pope. Properly designed rockets do not produce any smoke, tar or soot if fired with dry wood. There may be a very small amount of ash carried with the flue, But rockets are the most efficient with mass anyway, baking only with mass heat prevents even this little ash to touch the baking goods Yes. One can not insulate an oven chamber heated by flue gas routed around. For the white oven hardliners brockwell-bake.org.uk/Rocket_baking_oven_manual.pdfwww.rocketstove.org/images/stories/rocket%20oven%20manual%20jan%202%202012%20compressed%20and%20optimized.pdf |
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Post by Daryl on Mar 5, 2014 3:33:04 GMT -8
Of course, inside a bell constructed of firebricks it will also stay warm, but heat from the fire will be going to heat the bricks as well as the food in the oven, so therefore probably less efficient. Am I right in thinking if the bell was insulated then it would lose heat much faster and so the oven would cool down... Black ovens don't usually work that way. Most of the heat is radiant. The main fire is made before the cooking starts. Start using the small cob or brick ovens to test mass cooking out before building on a larger scale. It is pretty fun. (And yes, I have also used my little rocket stoves to heat chambers) |
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Post by wrekinwanderer on Mar 5, 2014 14:06:48 GMT -8
Karl - great looking links, thank you. I shall check those out at a more sociable time....
Hitchhiker - don't just leave me hanging with your one liner:
Did you remove the oven from a Chambers? How did you modify it? Was it any good? Lessons learned?
Please tell me some more....
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Post by Daryl on Mar 6, 2014 2:52:05 GMT -8
Oh, sorry about that. I was typing fast. I was thinking oven/bell/chamber and not Chambers stove. Again, sorry.
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Post by Donkey on Mar 10, 2014 10:39:13 GMT -8
Right??
I went flying off to look at Chambers ovens as well.. Nice units, shame modern stoves don't do the same! Hard to imagine improving on them, even with rocket stove tech. !!
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