During the course of this year there has been some new experiments conducted regarding bell size. In my own opinion, those experiences point strongly to a smaller Internal Surface Area (ISA) than assumed before. In order to keep the gas velocity in the heater high enough to get a good burn there should be at least an end temperature of 80 degrees Celsius (176 F) in the chimney stack directly after the bell.
Recommended bell size for a 150 mm (6") system is down to 5 m2 (53.8 sq ft)now.
All other sizes can be calculated from the riser cross section area of the respective heater. Just take the csa of your riser, and divide it by 1% of the 6" riser's csa . That would mean a 180 mm (7.09") system could drive 7.15 m2 (77 sq ft) of bell ISA, taken into account all surfaces excluding the floor and the firebox itself. The same proportions applied to a 200 mm (8") system would end up with 8.85 m2 (95.3 sq ft).
All the numbers assume the heater is coupled to an adequate chimney stack. Better stack, larger ISA, worse stack, smaller ISA, a bypass and/or a primer box of some kind. Also, the idea is that inside the bell system is very little drag. When the drag is increased by a not very favourable exhaust opening which is situated in a corner close to the floor for instance, the bell should be smaller in order to keep gas velocity adequate.
In short: Recommended bell size is 150 mm system, 5 m2 180 mm system, 7.15 m2 200 mm system, 8.85 m2
Understandably, all those figures are just guidelines, subject to tolerances depending on circumstances as laid out above.
Yes, left, right, front, back and ceiling. The floor won't heat as much because the exhaust opening is just above that.
Volume in terms of heat extraction is a misleading thing. Try to calculate a bell with a round footprint and compare that with other shapes. For example, a square, rectangle or a H or E shape. When all the volumes are the same the surface area will differ over a wide range, the circle being the smallest. After all, the internal surface of a bell takes up the heat.
Last Edit: Oct 24, 2015 8:28:43 GMT -8 by peterberg
Post by photoman290 on Oct 24, 2015 14:46:23 GMT -8
thanks peter i can see how the volume can change depending on the shape. i am using a single oil drum. i read that you need 4 times the diameter of the flue between the inlet and the outlet so 6 inch flue 24 inch drum. i also read that having the inlet one diameter higher than the exhaust is a good idea. is that still valid.?
Hmmm. That would be very good, since I assumed the csa should be used to calculate whether the expansion is large enough. In your example that would be just over 16 times the 6" inlet csa. It looks like a definition which is simple but that won't be that way when the bell doesn't sport a cylindrical shape. In your case, the ratio between the pipe and the barrel is very favourable I would say.
Placing the inlet higher than the exhaust is still valid, unless those are very wide apart. In that case it wouldn't make any difference. When the inlet stream is coming in through the bottom of the barrel there's another situation, though. The incoming stream is vertically in this case and will ingnore the exhaust opening altogether despite the fact that the inlet opening is lower than the exhaust. When both openings are in the side of the barrel, it would be best to create the height difference of one inlet diameter in my opinion.
All is about the placement of those openings, where they are in the bell and how close they are to each other. Hard to give a hard definition which will fit every situation.
Last Edit: Oct 25, 2015 2:16:56 GMT -8 by peterberg
Post by photoman290 on Oct 26, 2015 9:43:44 GMT -8
i will go for having the drum vertical with the inlet one flue pipe (150mm) higher than the exhaust. i wonder if anyone has done any CFD analysis of bells. i know david in mongolia did some stuff on the shape of rocket burn chambers. i don't know if i can climb the learning curve, cliff? of learning how it do it myself with one of the free CFD programs.
Post by dustinmattison on Nov 25, 2015 23:51:29 GMT -8
Peter, I am not sure if this question was answered somewhere else on the forum; can the bell system be used to move gasses through a bench? Currently, I plan to build one to heat water inside the bell, but can it also be used to heat a bench? If so, do you have any pictures or diagrams? I am having a hard time conceptualizing this.
Permaculture in Sichuan Province, China. I am building an earthbag house in the mountains near Chengdu. The plan is to also grow vegetables and forest gardening.
Post by dustinmattison on Nov 26, 2015 2:54:28 GMT -8
radek thanks for the picture. Now it is more clear. I assumed that the heating of the bench could use the tubing like a RMH. Would it work to use the bell connected to tubing inside the bench? (the way the RMH do)
Mind you, if you have a real drafty chimney, you could do it no problem. The isue being, if the friction in the tubes slows down the gases too much, a batch of the normal type wouldn't work too well. But with the latest slow burning discoveries, It could even be done. Remember that i don't know anything about the latest, slow burning, short riser type of batch rockets.
I'm sorry, but I'm really getting confused about how to properly design a bell system. This thread very authoritatively states that minimum bell ISA should be approximately 5 meters sq for a 150 mm system. But in the Bell Explanation? thread, matthewwalker states a single bell made from 6 half barrels is possible, which seems much larger than that. Or is my math very wrong?
Your math is wrong. In my old workshop I used a three barrel "tower" with a 6" or 150 mm batch box inside it. Those three barrels together were nearly 5 m2. So, 6 half barrels should be the same internal surface area.
dan1941300: Hi, I want to build nearly the same stove like you did a little bigger 1 brick every side more to put 10 cm Isolation more in inside. Please could you measure up all sizes also from the hot water tank (maybe you know how many liters the tank has) thx
May 11, 2018 9:13:45 GMT -8
dan1941300: If possible in metric cm, how many Celsius at the chimney? Is there anything you would do different if building again? Sorry for my bad english, my language is german, austrian. thx a lot
May 11, 2018 9:38:02 GMT -8
smarty: Dan my batchbox reached 1150C so refractory cement rated to at least 1200C
May 21, 2018 22:53:56 GMT -8
mercedes: Not sure where this question will end up...I just registered. HOW THICK SHOULD PERLITE/VERMICULATE/CLAY INSULATION BE BEHIND THE THERMAL BATTERY/COB BENCH IF IT BACKS UP TO A STRAW BALE WALL? Thanks! Can you please also post me: firstname.lastname@example.org thnx!!
May 28, 2018 20:05:23 GMT -8
kkp: Mercedes: Benches don't get real hot. In fact, they are rather cool compared to other areas. You shouldn't need a mix like you described
Jun 7, 2018 18:10:52 GMT -8
maartenmartens: beste Peter, ik heb je eergisteren een mail gestuurd via het contact formulier op je website , heb je die goed ontvangen ? mvg Maarten Martens, architect - geobioloog (mail betreffende de bouw van onze eigen RMH)
Jun 20, 2018 13:21:57 GMT -8
martinm: any one here with info \ experience with heat (from a mass heater) distribution with ducts throughout two storey house ?
Sept 8, 2018 22:58:52 GMT -8
padica: Good morning, this is a wonderful subject, please someone can help me with the theme of double and triple combustion, how it is achieved, theory and design, thank you
Sept 15, 2018 7:13:40 GMT -8
wiscojames: I'm afraid you won't get a response to such a vague question - I suggest reading through some of the threads related to your questions before asking for an explanation. People will be very generous with their knowledge if your question is more specific.
Sept 18, 2018 4:48:00 GMT -8
daniel: in my experience as I am working now on something of that nature, I have thought of making a heat exchanger and distributing the heat through vents using a slower fan. Now after a few years I realize that mass heaters give out primarily radiant heat, for
Nov 30, 2018 12:48:38 GMT -8
coastalrocketeer: Anyone posting in this shout box... if you have something you want people to see and respond to, create a thread in the appropriate forum section... this is not the place...
Dec 16, 2018 18:10:49 GMT -8
vesuvius: High Temperature Glass options,
Jan 4, 2019 16:28:17 GMT -8
vesuvius: Do any of you have experience with using the glass from home oven doors on a rocket stove? I'd like to have a viewing port on my stove but don't want to fork out for new ceramic glass. Any thought as to whether it would take the heat of a rocket stove?
Jan 4, 2019 16:30:40 GMT -8
yaya: you dont need the blowair for that temp..
Jan 13, 2019 16:43:57 GMT -8
flybywire: Glass window from an old washing machine is designed to take high temps. Cheap solution to your need.
Jan 27, 2019 0:10:58 GMT -8
coastalrocketeer: Anyone posting in this shout box... if you have something you want people to see and respond to, create a thread in the appropriate forum section... this is not the place to have a discussion... it is for short announcements
Feb 7, 2019 0:11:23 GMT -8
coastalrocketeer: you won’t likely get replies to questions here, and it is not a spot that makes holding an ongoing discussion possible...
Feb 7, 2019 0:12:22 GMT -8