adiel
Junior Member
Posts: 119
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Post by adiel on Jan 31, 2015 10:12:26 GMT -8
a two story idea - www18.zippyshare.com/v/Y2S8ffVs/file.htmlthe stove is in the upper floor and the mass is going down to the lower. here its a 5" system but is that matter? the isa is larger but i think about insulation for parts of the bell so it will be ok. also a very fast bypass. would appreciate your thoughts! thanks
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adiel
Junior Member
Posts: 119
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Post by adiel on Jan 31, 2015 21:51:47 GMT -8
anyone?
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Post by peterberg on Feb 2, 2015 12:00:36 GMT -8
Adiel, I fail to see where the exhaust gases that exit the riser would go. In effect, there's one upstream channel only, should there be a hole in the floor of the top bell? Besides that I have my doubts about this construction. The draft of the chimney stack has to be very strong to pull the exhaust gases down over a distance of 325 cm. Maybe, just maybe you can get away with it by manipulating the bypass.
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adiel
Junior Member
Posts: 119
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Post by adiel on Feb 2, 2015 14:21:08 GMT -8
Adiel, I fail to see where the exhaust gases that exit the riser would go. In effect, there's one upstream channel only, should there be a hole in the floor of the top bell? Besides that I have my doubts about this construction. The draft of the chimney stack has to be very strong to pull the exhaust gases down over a distance of 325 cm. Maybe, just maybe you can get away with it by manipulating the bypass. peter mabe the sketch is not clear - the gases from the riser should go down to the bell down stairs and exit it from the bottom. of course there is a bypass right next to the riser but i dont know if the gases can go so long down from the riser at all. that is my question actually - if there is a bypass, is it possible to go down a floor to heat downstairs with a stove placed at the upper floor? thanks!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2015 7:12:15 GMT -8
You may consider radiant heat from the ceiling.
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Post by aparker on Feb 3, 2015 12:50:41 GMT -8
Draft inducer? I am not sure that a conventional bypass will be able to prime the system. You could play with some adjustable bypass schemes, but a draft inducer might be a lot simpler and predictable. You may need to run the fan for the duration of the burn, but if it doesn't draw a lot of electricity, it could be run from a solar system. Where would one find a formula to determine the appropriate sizing of the fan?
I assume you want the fireplace upstairs for aesthetic reasons, or perhaps for convenience?
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adiel
Junior Member
Posts: 119
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Post by adiel on Feb 3, 2015 22:03:39 GMT -8
the stove is upstairs because the living room and the kitchen is upstairs. and the mountain view. the column is down stairs because the rooms are down stairs. the question is whether the gases will be able to do the path down stairs presumably that the isa is proper and there is a bypass?
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Post by satamax on Feb 4, 2015 1:00:07 GMT -8
Shilo, realy i don't believe it would work right.
Few ideas,
First, use an insulated chimney. and i would say, realy insulated plunger tube in the bottom bell.
Be prepared to put a fan on top of the chimney, and have a B plan if it doesn't work with all this.
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Post by shilo on Feb 4, 2015 4:14:18 GMT -8
my opinion- it is easy to check by doing a reversed peter-style barrel-tower
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Post by satamax on Feb 4, 2015 4:28:12 GMT -8
Go for it! Tho, attach it well, i don't want you to fall over, with embers, burning woo,d heavy bricks and the step lader, when your're refilling it
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Post by DCish on Feb 6, 2015 7:39:20 GMT -8
You could calculate draft numbers and see if it is even theoretically possible. Here is a useful chart: www.engineeringtoolbox.com/chimney-sizing-d_175.htmlHere is my best effort at applying these numbers -- double-check welcome! Example (I can't see your file right now, so making up sample height measurements): -Flu from top floor to bottom floor: 3 meters -Hot flue gasses going down that flue: 500 degrees C -Draft force created that must be overcome: ~70Pa -Flue from bottom of lower bell to exit out top of roof: 10 meters -Temp of flu gasses after cooling by bell: 100 deg C -Pressure of exit flue: 50Pa In this example exit pressure (50Pa) would not overcome downdraft pressure (70Pa) without adding energy to the system. If you say that a normal stove with no downdraft pipe and a 3m chimney runs fine at 100C exit temps, that tells you by this chart that ~20Pa will run the stove. You would need 50 Pa more to get this system up to running draft pressures. If you re-heat the final 7m of flu gasses by 300C (final temp 400C) you could theoretically (friction losses, etc, not considered) use draft to generate the pressure needed to run this stove. Seems like it would end up being rather inefficient, though. [EDIT: an uninsulated down flue would shed heat more quickly and reduce the amount of draft to be overcome]
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Post by aparker on Feb 6, 2015 17:14:19 GMT -8
It isn't a flue, it's a bell, a 4 or 5 meter high bell. I think the only way to really know will be to test a full-sized prototype. A deck, rooftop patio or a balcony would come in handy. You could test the tall bell separately, to keep things simple. Any stove might do to test the bell. I think that a thin walled bell might behave differently from one designed as a mass heater.
Dragon Heaters' Derrick-build already goes as high as 2.6 meters, stacking 3 55 gallon barrels, with a firebrick lining.
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Post by DCish on Feb 7, 2015 7:42:53 GMT -8
Be it flue or bell, either way you have warm gasses that have to be forced downward. The plus to the bell is that they are cooling as they drop. The minus is that this means there is less heat down low in the room as the hotter gasses stratify inside the bell. I certainly agree that experimenting is the only way to really know, though running the numbers might get you closer to something that works in an earlier iteration. One thing is certain, though: the more heat you want down low in the lower space, the more energy you will have to spend to get it there.
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Post by shilo on Feb 7, 2015 10:27:31 GMT -8
why do you need energy to forced warm gasses downward? the coolest gasses are go downward by gravity. even if the coolest gasses are 300c.
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Post by DCish on Feb 7, 2015 19:10:39 GMT -8
Yes, the coolest gasses move downward, it is true. In a closed system, 300c gasses will be pulled downward relative to 500c gasses. However, once you open the system to the atmosphere (chimney on one end, stove air inlet on the other), both are operating relative to the temperature of the ambient air outside the house, say -10c. So both 500c and 300c gasses will want to rise in the bell (the 500c gasses will, of course, be at the top of the bell), and have to be drawn down to the level of the exit flue. The example of the siphon that is used to explain the functioning of the J tube is the same that applies here.
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